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Author Topic: aMSN/WLM Diehards read this!  (Read 17279 times)
NiTrOcx
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« on: January 13, 2013, 08:58:23 pm »

After using aMSN/WLM all those years we get something new o.k its important to release something new but skype.. Hell no not even for free. I just hate skype.
I have it installed but it is such a nasty client. Be honest guys.. And thats not even the biggest problem. I keep getting spammed flooded and such by fucking kids, and i can't get rid of them.

I hate those script kiddies with their ub3r 1337 vb app that uses Skype4COM lib.
Thats why the msn lib for vb wasn't supported anymore after massive abuse. Ms did a great job on making the msn client nearly water proof against those auto chatters, name changers, and stuff like that. But unfortunately at the end of msn what is in about a few days it will be something for skids to celebrate for. POSSIBILITIES to modify skype to mass flood, crash clients, invites spam, easy virus/ad spreading, and ofcourse resolving people's IP address without having to add the person in skype.

They first learn things that if you give skids a lib for it that they are abusing it like unmature skids and skype just gives that all back to em.

My idea was to make a msn server. Sounds really crazy i know. Because the only thing we all just have is the stupid front end. Nothing more than a client. So if we would like to make that it would cost us time.. To reserve engineer the connection the protocol the packets etc etc..

But i'm sure people here or around the net have enough skills for that.
Just sucks you know. If nothing really is going to replace my msn client then i'll just use whatsapp. Because this badly sucks.

Regards,
nitrocx
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 09:06:13 pm by NiTrOcx » Logged
alexandernst
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 10:27:09 pm »

As far as my memory reaches you're not the first person asking something like that. Anyways, nobody (AFAIK) has ever made a WLM-like server.
Obviously, (almost) nobody here likes the change from WLM to Skype (because Skype just isn't oriented to what WLM was/is).

Replying to your idea:

While I (note I haven't talked about that with aMSN team) don't discard that option, there are a lot of cons about it.
First and the most important: the server(s). Who is going to pay for such a costy service? Who is going to maintain it?
Second: if this is done, we'll be using something that won't be MSN/Skype anymore. It will be a completely different service, with it's own users (means no possibility to talk with ex-MSN/Skype users).
If, after REing Skype's proto, we were able to talk with Skype users, then going all the way long with our own server will be completely useless as we'll have the ability already to use Skype's servers.

Note that all this doesn't include the fact that we'd need a lot of manpower/support/resources.

So, TL;DR:

No, I really don't see our own WLM server anytime soon, if ever. But that's just IMHO. Maybe other devs have something to say Smiley
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kakaroto
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 10:45:03 pm »

Hi,
yes, you're not the first person to suggest this and no, it won't happen...
1 - there is no time or motivation to reverse engineer the server side or to implement it (with databases and all that, instead of just 'a client').
2 - servers cost a lot of money
3 - people online on this 'new msn' will only be those connected to that server, which will be very small...
4 - there's XMPP which is much better if that's what you want, just move to xmpp/jabber and you're done, you can run your own server at home, protocol is open, and the server will interact with other xmpp servers so you can see everyone online
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KaKaRoTo
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 11:22:33 am »

Hi,
yes, you're not the first person to suggest this and no, it won't happen...
1 - there is no time or motivation to reverse engineer the server side or to implement it (with databases and all that, instead of just 'a client').
2 - servers cost a lot of money
3 - people online on this 'new msn' will only be those connected to that server, which will be very small...
4 - there's XMPP which is much better if that's what you want, just move to xmpp/jabber and you're done, you can run your own server at home, protocol is open, and the server will interact with other xmpp servers so you can see everyone online

I agree on point 1 and 4.
Money could be raised to run a server. Msn users would want to migrate to something that looks and feels like MSN. However the XMPP protocol would be a better choice for this that the old MSN protocol. The only MSN client that would be unable to adapt to XMPP would be WLM because it have been canceled. However as it have been canceled and wills stop working that's not really a problem.

As a long-time MSN user I would like to be able to tell all that ask "go there and download the new client, and register there.". This should be a service that utilize email as username just like MSN so that it does not confuse old users.

The advantage of using XMPP is that we would be using an established and stable protocol. No more would aMSN stop working because sudden proprietary protocol changes.
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alexandernst
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 12:42:17 pm »

We're not talking about 1000€/year (or 2k, or 3k). Making something *that* huge to work and be more or less table and reliant is *really* expensive.
Point 3 is valid, with or without you agreeing with it Tongue

Anyways, as we already said. Lets wait some time and see what it will happen.
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NiTrOcx
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2013, 07:48:02 pm »

We're not talking about 1000€/year (or 2k, or 3k). Making something *that* huge to work and be more or less table and reliant is *really* expensive.
Point 3 is valid, with or without you agreeing with it Tongue

Anyways, as we already said. Lets wait some time and see what it will happen.

Not sure about that i can hire a linux box that has 100tb bandwith each 30 days on a 1gbps network and has enough space.
Just for chatting more then enough. And sharing pictures. easy. Just P2P them like they are now..
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alexandernst
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2013, 01:45:12 am »

Sorry for delaying the replay. I wasn't sure how to answer to exactly. But here we go:

Look, I'm not sure how many servers there are behind FreeNode (which as you know is BIG), but there are at least 20 (if somebody reads this and has more information about that, please correct me).
According to FreeNode's FAQ there are around 60k-80k users each day. While I can't say how many MSN users there are, I can bet there are at least 10 times more
It's not just the bandwith a single server should have, but also the power to hold all those users. Also, One server won't work. Too much users to handle, there will be just too much lag, too much delay. Everything will be just too broken.

So, having a single server is a no-no. (Or maybe yes and I'm completely wrong. If that is the case, please prove me wrong with numbers)
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falde
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 05:16:15 pm »

Sorry for delaying the replay. I wasn't sure how to answer to exactly. But here we go:

Look, I'm not sure how many servers there are behind FreeNode (which as you know is BIG), but there are at least 20 (if somebody reads this and has more information about that, please correct me).
According to FreeNode's FAQ there are around 60k-80k users each day. While I can't say how many MSN users there are, I can bet there are at least 10 times more
It's not just the bandwith a single server should have, but also the power to hold all those users. Also, One server won't work. Too much users to handle, there will be just too much lag, too much delay. Everything will be just too broken.

So, having a single server is a no-no. (Or maybe yes and I'm completely wrong. If that is the case, please prove me wrong with numbers)
That depends entirely upon what you mean with "server". A single PC acting as a server will naturally not work. A cluster of PC:s or other low cost hardware may work better... or a Mainframe will certainly be able to handle the traffic...

However, cost is an issue; therefore Mainframes are not an alternative. That leaves us with either a cluster or a more decentralized solution. What about building a few clusters based on Raspberry Pi? We do not need to store or log IM messages, however offline messages are another deal...

Currently I cant log in to MSN, have they shut down some of the MSNP servers? Perhaps a migration to XMPP are needed quite immediately. The good thing with that is that there are plenty of FOSS implementations of XMPP. The bad thing of course are that its about more than just implementing some protocol changes, its an entirely new protocol.

When moving to a new server network an option are naturally to NOT use the XMPP protocol, but to design something new. There have been a lot of development on message queues and other stuff intended for the enterprise market.

It may also be useful to tap into existing services. Perhaps a protocol that are suitable for usage with Amazon or Googles cloud service? Or Perhaps some other service?
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alexandernst
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 07:05:54 pm »

After talking with the entire dev team, I can say that MSN will die. We have no man-power for doing what MS was doing. We don't have enough money for hardware able to maintain such a huge network / amount of users. And the most important thing: we (except me) don't have motivation.
MSN was a good thing a few years ago, but right now there are better things (and I'm not talking about that shitty facebook chat or skype's "chat"). There are real alternatives that are pretty much equal or even better than MSN, so what's the point in trying to keep MSN alive? Why should we do it if even MS isn't interested anymore in doing it?

As I already said, we're not closed to anything, I will try to help if somebody makes any serious effort in keeping MSN alive, but *we* won't do that effort.


As for your other question, XMPP with be shutdown later this year, MSNP will be shutdown March 2014. Right now all MSN client are available to login, so maybe you're having a temporal issue with the server aMSN is trying to connect with, or maybe a connection problem.
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falde
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2013, 01:36:38 am »

After talking with the entire dev team, I can say that MSN will die. We have no man-power for doing what MS was doing. We don't have enough money for hardware able to maintain such a huge network / amount of users. And the most important thing: we (except me) don't have motivation.
MSN was a good thing a few years ago, but right now there are better things (and I'm not talking about that shitty facebook chat or skype's "chat"). There are real alternatives that are pretty much equal or even better than MSN, so what's the point in trying to keep MSN alive? Why should we do it if even MS isn't interested anymore in doing it?

As I already said, we're not closed to anything, I will try to help if somebody makes any serious effort in keeping MSN alive, but *we* won't do that effort.


As for your other question, XMPP with be shutdown later this year, MSNP will be shutdown March 2014. Right now all MSN client are available to login, so maybe you're having a temporal issue with the server aMSN is trying to connect with, or maybe a connection problem.

Many of my friends have migrated to Google Talk that is quite reliable.

However I have used both aMSN and Pidgin for a while and can honestly say that as a chat client aMSN are superior, and I think that there are some real value here to preserve. I am of course talking about the user interface and visible functionality. What about just implementing a XMPP client with the look and feel (and name) of aMSN? Setting up a server network is a independent project.

I do not know Microsoft's motives to shut MSN down, other than that they want to promote Skype. But Microsoft have shut down a lot of projects that others have successfully picked up in one way or another. Usually their motives are to force users to migrate to another of their products of services. Like when they shut down Visual Basic (classic) in order to force users to use .NET and everyone migrated to RealBasic or Delphi.

I am interested in setting up a server network but that's of course not a one man project. If you wanna help i think that the first step is not to do any technical work but to try to rally support and see if we can get enough people that want msn to live on. It does not matter if they are coders or just wanna support financially, most things that need to be done can be outsourced to commercial developers.

What about the other people that suggested doing something like this? Are you guys ready to put in work, funding or both?
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justincase
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 01:14:01 pm »

Perhaps you might like to research the history of WON2.

When Valve shutdown their WON service, some people made underground WON networks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WON2
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Popodov
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 11:17:01 am »

Perhaps you might like to research the history of WON2.

When Valve shutdown their WON service, some people made underground WON networks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WON2



Thanks justincase for interesting information , I read that .
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