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Author Topic: I don't understand the policy on...  (Read 27259 times)
David_Jeffery
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« on: August 01, 2009, 06:52:02 pm »

First things first, I've been using amsn ever since I got a mac... about two years now. It's not perfect, and if I could use the official live messenger I would. But for now, it does what I need it too.

On the few times I've gone on this forum for help or just curiosity I'm amazed by the response to those who ask for a release date for whatever. I don't understand the point behind the policy of delaying it for a month - if you set an ETA for aMSN, that would stop the questions. You wouldn't have to be bound by it and could change it at will, but it would stop a lot of people wondering and asking a perfectly valid question. No other project I have come across uses this method, imagine the outcry if Firefox, OpenOffice or Pidgin did this!

The simple fact of the matter is that by using this 'power' arbitrarily the mods/developers come across as petty, egotistical people who have been bullied as a child and are now looking for ways to be respected or feared. Whilst it is a pretty decent program and I'm sure a lot of hard work is put into it the attitude of the developers/mods stink.

I'm ready to be flamed... (for what is a perfectly valid point)
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Sebastien FRADE
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 08:07:54 pm »

I personally completely disagree with you. I'm a aMSN user since... well, since nearly the first Windows release of aMSN. I've discover GNU/Linux because of this software and really love it and the way it evolves. Devs, Contributors, Skinners, Pluggin-makers do their job in order to just do it. It is simply useless asking 1.000.000 time the same asked question "when will aMSN2/shared Folder/etc be released?" because the answer is simple: AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

If you want to know how something is usable, just try the last devel version.
The aMSN devel team work for FREE, taking time on their hollydays/weekends/nights in order to share, freelly (free as in free beer and as in freedom) their software with the rest of the world.
If you don't like the way they answer on the forum, just take a few minutes imaginating how boring it is having 1.000.000 time the same question when you already officially answered. YES, you may be less gentle than they already are.
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kakaroto
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 08:40:03 pm »

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I just spent 1 hour typing a very long and detailed response and it just got lost for some reason Cry I'm saddddddddddddddddd Cry
i'll post again my official answer when i get some more free time...
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KaKaRoTo
David_Jeffery
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2009, 08:43:06 pm »

There are many ways to combat the same question being asked again and again - they could create a sticky with a provisional date in and note that it was due to change. However, the team seem to prefer to shout at those eager to know more info about their favorite msn clone.
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WM-666
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 08:58:48 pm »

oh my god Smiley

You should check the Pidgin forum (oh wait, they even DON'T HAVE a forum for their users...). Their old 'mailing list' (or whatever it is called): the pidgin developers have created and displayed the absolute top of arrogance there. Pidgin has ETA's on their 'upgrades': Those ETA's are never followed, always late.

aMSN HAS a forum for their users, the developers ARE taking time to answer user-questions, ...
I've seen the screencasts of aMSN2 on youtube, and I'm also very excited. But I know these things take time... A release date is useless: it is too far in the future (developers work on their free time, no one knows if they will have more or less free time in the future), and if that date should be surpassed, there will be nothing but angered users...

As suggested in another thread, it would be nice if there was some sort of blog or so, so that users could follow the development (without themselves using git and downloading and compiling and ...). In that way, users can 'see' for themselves of aMSN2 is ready for use or not.

The 'one month delay' is not real of course, it is just saying: "Asking for a release (date) is not making us working harder/faster, it will more likely result in wanting us not to work on it".

Seriously: the developers of aMSN are really doing their best! They are very friendly (as long you are friendly too Wink ). They really don't deserve this kind of attitude from their users...
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David_Jeffery
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 09:06:29 pm »

I was under the impression that the one month delays were real. My main point is that they are rather rude to their users in this manner.
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kakaroto
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2009, 11:03:47 pm »

Hi again, I'm back.. and I'll try to answer like I did previously (the long message that disappeared because my accidently close the browser... ) however, I'll probably much less detailed and it will be a shorter version of my previous answer...
so yeah.. thankfully, I'm in a good mood today (no idea why), so I'll try to answer your question as much as possible, trying to make you understand the issue here.. and hopefully, others will use this thread as a reference...
So first, of all, the "delay it one month" is not a policy, it's a joke! Nothing more than a joke.. and yes, you WILL find other open source software using this same 'policy'.. I originally took it after I saw it used by developers of a few other programs...
Anyways, the thing is that we just can't set an ETA... you have to understand that we've already said a few times that aMSN2 will not be ready before 2 to 5 years.. it takes a lot of time and we can't give a release date if we don't know it ourselves!!!
I'll take the example of aMSN 0.98... we had a plan to release it 1 to 2 months max after 0.97... now go look at the release date of 0.97.. it was in august 2007!! It's been 2 years... so what use is it to say "in 2 months" and have no release until 2 years later.. it will only make the users mad and angry and start yelling and getting impatient, etc...
The point is simple, if you want to speed up the release, stop asking about it, just get the code and start working with us, help us fix the bugs and advance to the next release... The reason is that we're all just simple people who do this on their free time, it takes quite a huge amount of time to work on this stuff.. and we have our own lives, we're mostly students who go to school and have a full time job at the same time, others have families, wives, husbands, children, and still work at a full time job.. how much free time does this give us ? not much...  All the code we do, as well as the user support on IRC and in the forums, it's all taken on our free time.. so imagine having to answer people 10 times everyday about when you might possibly release a new version when you yourself have no idea, it's really not only annoying, but also a huge waste of time..
I'm sure there's some document out there in the internet, explaining the whole policy of 'delaying one month everytime a user asks'.. there are widely known policies that users need to know and respect with regards to open source software.. for example, you don't go to the developers and say "your program sucks, because it doesn't do X or Y" .. it's useless, you're getting the developer angry while he's doing it for free, you didn't pay for it, you have no right to yell at the developer.. in the same sense, the widely known policies include "never ask for a release date"... just today, i wasted 1 hour writing you the previous message, and probably gonna waste another 30 minutes rewriting it (my fault), but all this time, I could have spent it programming on aMSN... so the very fact that people ask the question is making us waste time, which is why we say "it gets delayed because you asked"...
You have to understand that we're doing this all for free, on our free time, and the only reward is the user's satisfaction and our own... if we were spending 8 hours a day on it, and we have X developers on it, we could probably estimate when the next release will be.. but it is SO unpredictable with the way things are.. you never know if you can spent 0 or 20 hours a week on it this month or the next.. you don't know if this month, you'll have 0 or 30 people who are available to work on it...
It's like I said, we planed for 0.98 one to two months after 0.97 but what happened is that just after the release, we had a huge surge of work done for 1 week, then we had a full 6 months without ANY code change.. because everyone was too busy with their own lives... so 6 months without any changes, you can hardly make a release with that... it really is unpredictable, the next release is always "as soon as possible" but we don't know the answer ourselves, so we can't give one to the users either...
So again, like I said setting an ETA is useless, and even if we can 'delay it', what would the users think if we delay it every month for 2 full years? we would start to answer hundreds of thread every month about "why wasn't it released today as promised"... and then we would waste even more time!
There really is NO obligations from our part to even answer the users.. like I said, it's all free and we get nothing in return, so we have no obligation to either implement a feature or to give support or to answer anyone in the forums, but I like to think that we're nice enough and I want the project to be very close to their users (and I've had a lot of incredible comments from other open source developers with regards to how amazingly the aMSN project is very close to their users), that's why we take the time to answer you guys here...
like WM-666 said, pidgin doesn't even have a forum for their users.. if you go to talk to them in IRC (which I've done), you'll find them extremely arrogant and unhelpful...
You also gave the example of openoffice.. yes, they have a timeline and ETAs, etc.. but that's because they are backed by companies like Novell, IBM or whatever.. there are people who are paid to this, so they can say that in X months, we'll have spent Y hours of work for sure.. with aMSN, we have no way of knowing if we can spend any time working on the project at all...

oh, I've just re-read your post, and I totally forgot about "petty, egotistical people who have been bullied as a child"... well.. what can i say.. I guess you're completely out of line here! I did comment on it in my previous (lost) post, but I forgot what I said, and I don't have any inspiration now, so let's just leave it at that...
Anwyays, I hope you understand us better now, and I'd like to hear what you are your thoughts now that I've explained a bit the situation....

p.s: since we've put that 'policy', people started to understand us, or they started to fear asking the question and we're wasting a lot less time answering that kind of stuff... and we're less annoyed now Smiley

edit: oh, something i remember from my previous post.. I said that if you looked in the forum here, you'll see that in the last 2 months I think, you'll see me telling people that 0.98 would be out in "1 week or two" and i meant it, and although i've spent these last months really working hard (had a lot of free time lately) on aMSN, there was just way too much stuff to do that it wasn't released yet.. and unfortunately, we've still got a lot of work to do...
Also, it's useless asking for a "Release", you can just use the SVN version (or git, in the case of amsn2) and be done with it.. a release is nothing more than a specific revision in SVN or GIT...
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KaKaRoTo
alexandernst
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 01:18:17 am »

O.o!
That answer is HUGE! nm, I red it, and I totally agree. As a student with work (only for 2 months) who works on amsn2 I can say that it's not easy to work on amsn2 during the week. I wake up early, go to work, get at home at X pm and I'm so tired that I just go to bed xd. During the weekend I can do some things, but going out, at clubs and so on is terribly fynnier than coding, so... you can imagine.

Oh yeah, aMsn2 will be delayed 6 more month because of that pool :p  (and 30 more minutes because of KaKaRoTo's answer witch took him 30 mins that he could be used for working on amsn2)
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David_Jeffery
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 02:59:09 pm »

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm glad you didn't just shout me down... I was just presenting how this would look to a new user. But I am grateful for the production of aMSN and I wish you all the luck in the future.

Thanks,
David.
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lucianolev
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 10:40:18 pm »

Hi

@kakaroto: I think you should make your post sticky with a title like "Why we have no release date" or "How aMSN is developed". It's not only really interesting but also quite unknown those things for the new users.

Btw, I also really like the idea of a development blog like someone mention. But I understand maybe there's no much time or you just don't like too much blogging.

Thanks!
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kakaroto
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 11:11:26 pm »

@lucianolev, yeah.. i'm thinking of doing that.. but i'm lazy :p
about the blog, yes, it's a good idea, but i hate blogging and i don't do it... we could just post more news to the front page (it's the same as bloggin), but, oh well.. time and laziness aren't helping...
anyways, i usually post here whenever there is some advances worthy of mentionning (the MSNP18 changes and A/V support was discussed in the forums in length...)
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KaKaRoTo
Jonte
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 12:07:34 am »

For people interested in seeing the work being done on  aMSN2, it's possible to view commits and changes on gitHub.

aMSN2: http://github.com/drf/amsn2/commits/master

Here you can view the code being added to aMSN2 by the developers.
Perhaps there's something similar for aMSN, I don't know how aMSN is managed, maybe by SVN? Anyhow.. Just wanted to say there is a way to track development of aMSN2 in a pretty easy way Smiley
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Montblanc
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2009, 09:24:43 pm »

Quote from: "kakaroto"
I'm in a good mood today


:shock: I'm gonna underline 100 times this day on my calendar!!!

(LOL)
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Viral_99
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 09:43:24 am »

Quote from: "kakaroto"
we've already said a few times that aMSN2 will not be ready before 2 to 5 years..


(sorry for that question, only for my own curiosity/stupidity)

didn't you think that if it takes really like 4-5 years on the release date it will be already......old?  :roll:

i mean... in 5 years... an ubuntu user like me upgrade 2...3 releases... :?

sorry for bad-english...is not my language... :?
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kakaroto
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 07:15:46 pm »

Hi Viral_99, welcome to the forums,
Yes, it will be 'old', which is why we will keep releasing the 0.x branches of amsn... amsn 0.98 will be released soon anyways! And also, as much as we work on it, amsn2 will evolve over time and we'll always keep it up to date with the protocol, so once ready, it really won't be old, it will only be awesome! Smiley
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KaKaRoTo
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