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Author Topic: other protocols  (Read 18141 times)
dacovale
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« on: December 25, 2007, 02:42:54 am »

yes, I know, it's been discussed....

I just have some questions, which I can't seem to find answers to elsewhere. (Please, do give pointers if I missed a source of information)

Will other protocols (more specifically jabber) ever be implemented?
(a follow-up would be "when?")

I tried to search the forums, but couldn't find anything recent. I just learned enough to know that there are two camps, the do's and don'ts. I get the whole GAIM/Pidgin-argument with how two non-identical protocols with the same UI would give us either a less intuitive UI or a less capable one. Yet I think that there would be ways around this.

If this would be a way too big project to do under the amsn name (which I'm of half a mind to think it is), what chances would another project have, building atop the current amsn code? Is the protocol code separated from the core and UI or is it all a jumble?
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H@t Trick
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2007, 04:22:52 am »

I'm not a dev, and I've only been using aMSN for 6 or 7 months or so but I have been somewhat active on the forums for most of that time. It has been asked about.
Pidgin for example, as it has been mentioned here, seems to follow a lowest common denominator (if that) theory to support multiple protocols. This is the limitation of a multiprotocol client, it can't support the latest versions of each protocol, so it has to support only a small subset of the essential features...chat, file transfer, emoticons, contact list, add/remove/block contacts. My guess is you could try and run multiple full featured protocols in parallel in the same app and maintain the protocols separatly and display the contact list individually or combined, but the features available for each would be different and such, sorta like two apps with one common interface.

The problem mentioned by the devs with aMSN currently is that the protocol and the gui are very much intertwined, the plan that I have read (and since I am not involved in the development of aMSN2 this is not official nor accurate) that the plan is the have the protocol separated from the gui, so that someone could create their own gui in any language they want and link it to the protocol written in the language chosen by the dev team. This is the limitation apparently to supporting the latest MSN protocol.
Also the devs have no intention of creating clients for another protocol or supporting other protocols. Conceivably I am guessing one could take aMSN2 when it finally is released (no et btw, so don't hold your breath) and create a gui that uses the aMSN protocol libraries, and libraries for the other protocols also and have a full featured multi protocol app.

I am sure it will not come from the zMSN team but then again I am not on the team so I can't really speak for them, just my observations.

I hope this clears things up and also I that I have represented the information already discussed on the forums accurately and not stepped on anyones toes with a wrong/inaccurate answer.
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dacovale
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2007, 06:29:54 am »

pretty much answered my questions. I think I'll go and compile Pidgin with the MSNP14 enabled then. I'd rather have aMSN, but I need jabber and I can't stand multiple clients. I'd simply rather live with fewer features than fewer protocols.

Thanks for the speedy answer. Christmas days morning (here in Sweden atleast) and still a quick answer. I love dedicated communities. =)
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H@t Trick
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2007, 06:42:03 am »

you're quite welcome, the quick answer was due to the fact i had nothing to do, there wasnt really anything open here on xmas eve night in Toronto, and I'm not Christian so it was just a regular day/night for me other than no where to go, so i ended up sitting at the computer and watching tv all night.
I hope you have a Happy/Mery Christmas there in Sweden.
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dacovale
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2007, 07:44:23 am »

thanks =)

There's such a hype around the holidays that it's easy to forget not everyone celebrates Christmas.
I made a detour via the computer on my way to mass... I guess no mather what, you get stuck at the computer =)
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kakaroto
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2007, 11:12:50 am »

hello,
first off topic : yes, there are many people who don't celebrate Christmas (me for instance, I'm muslim), but also a lot of people who celebrate christmas but prefer celebrating it hacking (some of the amsn team:p). I hope you get a merry christmas and happy holidays in Sweden, and be prepared to receive our gift : 0.97 release of aMSN scheduled for 25th of dec (today).

now, about your question. I think H@T_Trick answered it pretty well already. What he said about aMSN2 was not entirely true though. The plan is to make aMSN2 a full rewrite where the GUI and the protocol would be completely separate in order to allow easily adding new protocols or changing GUIs/toolkits. BUT this is only a decision made for the design, having the ability to support another protocol does not mean we will.. on the contrary we do not want to, we only want that ability to make sure our code is clean and separated in perfectly independant code layers.
The question of the multiprotocol has been asked a few times, and although we hesitated a lot, I've come to the point where I think that aMSN should be an MSN clone and nothing more. For multiprotocol clients, there are other clients out there that do the job very well... But why is aMSN so successfull ? simply because it replicates one client (MSN), supports one protocol fully, gives you the best look&feel that makes you feel that using aMSN is just like using windows live messenger. It has a really good support for the protocol and has plenty of features... when you think about it, the most known client to mankind is pidgin, they have a total of 20,571,807 downloads (15th position) in all time, while aMSN has 16,399,888 downloads (17th position) in all time (from Sourceforge.net stats : http://sourceforge.net/top/topalltime.php?type=downloads). This means that aMSN, supporting one protocol is almost as popular as pidin, and the reason is that all our effort is focused on one protocol, if we support 2 protocols, it means we'll spend twice less time on improving ou support for MSN than what we can do now.. this probably means that we never would have had support for webcam for example.
So the main concerns are :
- we might not support the protocol as fully as we do today
- the 'common GUI' aspect H@T_Trick explained
- we replicate a specific look&feel and features because we're an msn clone, if we're not a clone anymore, what would happen to the way we work
- supporting one protocol made us famous, why break this? Smiley

Basically, when we were brainstorming about aMSN2, I was told "why do multiprotocol, just create a killer app for MSN, that's what's lacking right now, there are tons of multi protocol clients out there, but none is the killer msn app, that's your job to do it.". And I think it's true. If we do multiprotocol, we'll just be one of the many clients, and we'll probably never compete with pidgin...
why do you want amsn to be multiprotocol? besides the fact that you want to connect on msn and jabber and you don't want to use two separate clients? I think it's because you tried many multi protocol clients, and you thought that aMSN is better and that's the client you want to use for both your accounts... why is aMSN better.. because we are single-protocol... removing the single-protocol rule will make us not as good as we are now, so you would never bother thinking "if only amsn was multiprotocol"..
ok.. I'm rambling, it's 5:15 AM, so I should better stop talking!

Merry christmas!
Ho Ho Ho! Smiley
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KaKaRoTo
dacovale
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 06:20:31 am »

Quote from: "kakaroto"
... why do you want amsn to be multiprotocol? besides the fact that you want to connect on msn and jabber and you don't want to use two separate clients? I think it's because you tried many multi protocol clients, and you thought that aMSN is better and that's the client you want to use for both your accounts... why is aMSN better.. because we are single-protocol... removing the single-protocol rule will make us not as good as we are now, so you would never bother thinking "if only amsn was multiprotocol"


What can I say, besides "you're 100% correct".
aMSN is better because of your focus. (that's why my jabber-contacts still haven't seen me online during the holidays. I can't stop using aMSN for the MSN-network, so pidgin never gets fired up)
I spoke too fast and without thinking it through when I posted about making aMSN multi-protocol.

Many thanks to the whole crew for such a great app. Despite my initial post, I'm glad you don't ship it with the kitchen sink. =)
It might not be the right tool for me, but I still love it. Cool
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Daniel15
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2007, 08:35:20 am »

Indeed, the only reason I love aMSN is because its MSN protocol implementation is much better than any other messenger clone I've tried (although, Pidgin is working on a MSNP14 implementation at the moment... Let's see how that turns out...)
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H@t Trick
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2007, 08:54:00 am »

dacovale,
Off Topic: yeah i understand it's hard to forget there are those of us who don't celebrate, but it's ok. for me being Jewish I have nothing to celebrate this night, I already had my Channuka celebrations 2.5 weeks ago, so I had my share, and you just had yours, so it's all good now, and others I believe have Eid coming up and they will get their chance to celebrate. We all get along great here on the forums which is great!! (religion and holidays ofcourse is not a common topic even in the  "Whatever you want to talk about" forum, but were here working together!)
On topic: Kakaroto explained it much better than me, but he is a dev and knows much more about aMSN than me. aMSN IS the killer MSN app, and when (or is it if? more like when I hope) aMSN2 is released it should be even better than the real MSN,  and will be the innovator (or is it already?) and maybe MS will have to copy aMSN (it's wouldnt be the first, not the last time MS copied someone else's work). I love using aMSN, although having a fresh XP install eliminated the reason I switched and and tempted to go back to WLM, I shall be sticking with aMSN, especially now that I made the plunge and went with the SVN version! It's fast and sleek and has pretty much every feature I want and use! Sure multiprotocol sounds good in theory, but there are drawbacks. I still run ICQ2001b (can't stand the new versions, and I love the original interface style), along with AIM, YIM, and 4 aMSNs, I'm the perfect candidate for multiprotocol, but also the perfect candidate for aMSN because I need full protocol support which aMSN for all intents and purposes provides.

I'm glad to see you have stuck with aMSN, it's so good it's addicting eh?

Happy Holidays you you and everyone here, whichever holiday you celebrate!
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kakaroto
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2007, 07:48:27 pm »

<offtopic> H@T_Trick, what??? you're jewish!!! why didn't you say so before, now I have to ban you!!! just kidding! Yeah, we're all getting along well! And Eid for muslims was last thursday (20th) so we already 'had' our celebration (although I didn't celebrate it here since I'm in canada, which makes it a bit hard to celebrate that...). It's fun to see that the 3 religions (for the one common God), celebrate their religious day around the same time.. Eid, that Channuka, then Christmas! Smiley </offtopic>
Thanks dacovale, Daniel15 and H@T_Trick, for understanding what I said, I thought it would all just be rambling without making much sense :p

Have a nice "holiday season" all Smiley
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KaKaRoTo
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 06:45:48 am »

Off topic: lol  :lol: @Kakaroto
Thats right Eid was last week, sorry, i got my dates wrong then Kakaroto, Last is when one of my coworkers mentioned that Eid was coming up, and it just didnt click.

On topic: It made perfect sense, my ramblings usually don't make sense Tongue
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Kreuger
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 03:25:38 am »

You're absolutely right in the sense that amsn is used because of it being the best, fully featured alternative to the official client. I too would like to see multi protocols used especially if they're developed as far as this one is but I guess I can understand why not. Unless we managed to swing some of Pidgin's developers to the amsn team who were willing to work specifically on one protocol, maybe then it could be possible. I've been dying to have webcam in Pidgin but they refuse to do it and I cant myself. I've tried to figure out what parts Kopete uses to maybe try and implement their libraries but got no answers about it on their forums so I gave up. I'll just have to stick with msn and this wickedly awesome client which does everything I need and lets me turn off the crap I hate.
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kakaroto
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2007, 07:06:02 am »

lol@Kreuger.
the issue is not just about focusing the effort on the msn protocol but it's also about the UI being msn specific or generic. Having a generic UI automatically means a crippled client. Also, aMSN is an MSN clone and should stay an MSN clone, not yet another IM client.
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KaKaRoTo
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 11:18:03 am »

i really dont care about other protocols, but using more msn accounts at the same time would rock
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billiob
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2008, 02:03:47 pm »

[Thread splitted to "Whatever You Want To Talk About Here"]
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