Hidden files & directories in file dialogs

[hillingar]

Hi,

I'm using the development version from Jan 16. In the file dialogs (for saving a conversation, sending a file etc.) the hidden files and directories don't show up any more. Is there a new config option for this? I haven't made any changes to my system other than upgrading aMSN.

[square87]

Hello Hillingar.
Do you have desktop integration plugin loaded? If yes try to unload it.
Or... try with the last svn

[vivia]

No, actually we changed it some time ago. If you have KDE or Gnome, try the desktop integration plugin

[PJ]

No, actually we changed it some time ago. If you have KDE or Gnome, try the desktop integration plugin

Which is locked in the current SVN revisions

[hillingar]

Yes it must be so, I have desktop integration installed but it doesn't show up. But I wasn't using it anyway .

In any case, the user should have means of accessing all files & directories. I suggest that you revert to the old behaviour (by default, not through a plugin).

[JeeBee]

Hi Hillingar,
It's this part of the code in the script named "amsn" that does this
(you can comment these lines without any problem by putting # before each line):

Code:

# Bye bye hidden files in file dialogs (works fine with Mac even without this).
if {[OnLinux]} {
    catch { tk_getOpenFile -w00t } ;# start file dialog with unknown option
    set ::tk::dialog::file::showHiddenVar 0
}

The reason for implementing it like this is that a linux user directory often has *many* hidden directories that
you really do not want to see here. They are hidden for a purpose. Also, they do not show in a normal directory listing (the 'ls' command).

Finally, note that it's still "easy" to enter hidden directories, if you know how to. Just click the "send file" button on a chat window (you'll be in the default home dir). Then type .amsn and press enter. You now do see the contents of this hidden folder.

The way it was before there were also complaints from users.
I guess it could be configurable with an option in advanced preferences perhaps ...

[hillingar]

Yes thanks, I know that trick but the average user may not. I think as a general usability principle, if we are to use GUI (and we do), the user should be able to access all dirs and files. In the console, ls and ls -a are equally easy, the same should be true for the GUI. The user should be free to use hidden directories for file saving/sending as he/she likes or needs. The old code was maybe unpractical for some but at least everybody had some way of doing what he/she wanted. This way there's absolutely no chance to reach a hidden folder (save by doing some non-obvious tricks).

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this new behaviour caused problems for me, it is likely to be so for some others, too. I imagine the Tk file dialog can't be made to have a "show/hide hidden stuff" button like its Gtk and Qt counterparts. In that case, please add an amsn config option for that or even better use a patched version of the file selector (take this as a feature request ). Thanks...

[kakaroto]

hi hilingar,
I understand your concern, but you said "the average user" may not know the trick to access the hidden files, but the "average user' doesn't know either the "-a" option of 'ls', actually, the average user may not even know how to use the console. Many users only see non-hidden files when accessing their home directory, hidden directories are hidden for a purpose, they are "hidden" so in other words they shouldn't appear. in a normal linux environment you would have at least 100 hidden directories that you don't want to see, everyone will say 'wtf, where did those directories come from???' and also note that hidden dirs are usually configuration directories for programs and such, so you don't usually need to send those kind of files, you usually send images, documents, etc.. but the "average user" won't need to go deep in a hidden directory structure to send an image from the cache directory of firefox, right ? if a user knows about those hidden directories, he probably also knows that typing the name of the directory in the file dialog will get him to that directory.
Yes, this could be made an option and it would be really easy, but we don't want to add yet another advanced option, we already have noone reading those advanced options because it got so bloated noone bothers anymore, so we don't want to add new stuff that won't be used at all.
thanks though for your concern and the suggestion.

[hillingar]

I see your point, too, but doesn't it sound a bit Big Brother-ish . I was (although unhappily,) content to a preferences option but IMHO leaving it completely out is a really bad idea. Showing hidden files wouldn't be a bloat really, you can trust that it WILL be used. In the current form the file selector is simply kaputt: It can't select the files. So please re-consider adding it to the preferences. Thanks...

[haglund]

I see your point, too, but doesn't it sound a bit Big Brother-ish . I was (although unhappily,) content to a preferences option but IMHO leaving it completely out is a really bad idea. Showing hidden files wouldn't be a bloat really, you can trust that it WILL be used. In the current form the file selector is simply kaputt: It can't select the files. So please re-consider adding it to the preferences. Thanks...

For most people, sending hidden files, and/or sending files located in hidden directories makes no sense. Pictures, sounds, and other things people usually want to send to their IM friends do not belong in hidden directories.

[hillingar]

For most people, sending hidden files, and/or sending files located in hidden directories makes no sense. Pictures, sounds, and other things people usually want to send to their IM friends do not belong in hidden directories.

Alas, it doesn't change the fact that the current file selector cannot select files (=doesn't work). Sorry but I need a working app...

Almost all filesystems have hidden files and all GUI browsers/file selectors in all applications that I know of have a relatively easy way to show hidden files. I have seen people argue over this and that usability feature but I've never come across such a sharp restriction as disabling access to hidden files. I'm not asking (anymore) that you change the default behaviour, but please add a config option for that.

[kakaroto]

Hi,
this isn't a 'sharp' decision nor big-brother-ish. what you're asking just doesn't make any sense for the common user. If you want to see hidden files, then use the desktop integration plugin which will use your default text selector for your system (nautilus or zenith or whatever) and if you say it allows you to see hidden files, then let it allow you to see hidden files.
if you want to see hiden files with the default tk window, type .* as the filename and press enter, they'll all appear (but directories won't appear). If necessary, just type a "ls -a" to get the filename or the directory or the full path to the file you want to send, then paste the whole path in the tk file selector.
I think it's a decision that has to be made and I decide that it will be a waste of our time and space and adding yet another unnecessary advanced option.
If you're convinced we're taking the wrong decision, then start a poll in the forums asking if we should add the option or not and explain the situation with a link to this thread. if the votes show me wrong, I'll reconsider.

[haglund]

For most people, sending hidden files, and/or sending files located in hidden directories makes no sense. Pictures, sounds, and other things people usually want to send to their IM friends do not belong in hidden directories.

Alas, it doesn't change the fact that the current file selector cannot select files (=doesn't work). Sorry but I need a working app...

Almost all filesystems have hidden files and all GUI browsers/file selectors in all applications that I know of have a relatively easy way to show hidden files. I have seen people argue over this and that usability feature but I've never come across such a sharp restriction as disabling access to hidden files. I'm not asking (anymore) that you change the default behaviour, but please add a config option for that.

Personally, I was quite annoyed by the fact that aMSN's default Tcl/Tk file browser did show hidden files when I started using aMSN some time ago. This made me get the Desktop Integration plugin, so that I would see KDE's file browser instead of the one which is default for aMSN. All I have to do if I for some reason want it to show hidden files is to either configure it to show them, or to hit F8.

I don't know about your environment, but for me this works fine.

[hillingar]

Does the desktop integration plugin come with aMSN? If not, maybe it should be made standard. Also, in the CVS version it's disabled at the moment.

if you want to see hiden files with the default tk window, type .* as the filename and press enter, they'll all appear (but directories won't appear). If necessary, just type a "ls -a" to get the filename or the directory or the full path to the file you want to send, then paste the whole path in the tk file selector.

Not very practical, eh?

I think it's a decision that has to be made and I decide that it will be a waste of our time and space and adding yet another unnecessary advanced option.
If you're convinced we're taking the wrong decision, then start a poll in the forums asking if we should add the option or not and explain the situation with a link to this thread. if the votes show me wrong, I'll reconsider.

Would you commit it if I made a patch to add this config option myself? If you're too busy I will spend my own time. Don't worry, this new config option won't make the preferences window any more bloated than what it is now. The default behaviour will be as you wish, so the "common user" won't have anything to complain about (common user won't notice the new one-line bloat in the advanced prefs either), but people who need to access hidden dirs/files will be able to do it without relying on Gnome or KDE. I use a lightweight system (fluxbox), so KDE or Gnome are not options for me.

[kakaroto]

Hi hillingar.
You seem determined for such a feature, I'm doubting my reasoning, although you didn't really convince me, I do think that you are somewhat right and I'd like to give you a chance. Starting from SVN revision 7837, you will find an option in the advanced preferences window that will let you enable or disable the 'show hidden files and directories', it's the last option in the 'appearance' section of the advanced prefs. Tell me if you find any bugs with it.
have fun!