aMSN Forums

Development => aMSN2 => Topic started by: kakaroto on June 12, 2008, 01:11:17 am



Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 12, 2008, 01:11:17 am
Hi All and welcome to a whole new world!

In this email, I will be announcing our current plans for aMSN2, finally, the veil is coming off and you will all get to look at the new path we're taking!
I know some of you already know of all this, and some of you were eagerly waiting for it for a long time. No more rumors.. no more maybes... here's the deal!

aMSN2 is a total rewrite of aMSN 0.x. It will not be in tcl/tk. For the greatest pleasure of many of you, we decided that the best suited programming language for such a project is python!!
So, all python lovers rejoice, and all python haters, sorry, too bad, live with it!
We didn't want to say anything publicly about aMSN2 to avoid any kind of flame war or anything like that, we're used to all those flame wars happening whenever the choice of the language is being discussed, now, the choice is made, the code is written (partially) so it is useless to start debating this, so please, refrain from any useless debate.
Another big issue was the choice of the toolkit.. some people might prefer gtk, others would like qt... mac users will want a native cocoa application, and the same goes for windows or whatever toolkit you can think of... We researched that a lot and trying to choose wisely which toolkit to use...
We had a list of requirements and were trying to find which toolkit would answer those requirements the best...
- GTK did not fit the requirement of being able to have a background image on a text widget (unless doing a lot of hacking and reimplementing the text widget)...
- QT did not fit the requirement about the performance....
Which one to choose... well, we decided to go with something completely different : EFL
For those who do not know what it is, the EFL is the Enlightenement Foundation Libraries. It's a set of libraries that makes building UIs such a beauty! It only has one.. euhh.. two... humm.. a few problems :
1 - there are still no releases of the EFL.. so anyone willing to test this needs to compile the huge set of libraries from CVS
2 - the APIs might change until the libraries are released...
3 - we cannot embed an image inside a text widget.. so no smileys support...

The first two issues are easily dealt with : we don't care.. anyways, it should be released by the time amsn2 gets finished... the last one (embeded images/smileys) is resolved with another solution : use webkit (html engine) for drawing the contact list and chat window text widgets....

But most importantly, we wanted to create a 3 level design that would help us have a 'pluggable' front end... allowing the user to choose which toolkit he wants...
So I am pleased to announce that aMSN2 will be a multi-front-end application!!!

We currently have an EFL front end, a native cocoa front end for Mac users, a ncurses front end, and.... a gtk front end!
There might also be someone working on a QT and/or a XUL front end soon...

We obviously do not want to be maintaining all of those front ends, so there will be development teams who take care of their own front ends.. for now, whether the aMSN team will give support for only one officially chosen front end or to none is still unclear... but I am proud to announce that :
The GTK front end will be maintained by the emesene developers team!
We had a few discussions with the emesene developers and they were interested in joining forces with aMSN. We now have 4 new members who will be joining us in the development of aMSN2 :
Mariano : developer of emesene who wants to work on aMSN2 in general.
Dx : also developer of emesene who wants to work on the gtk front end and maybe the core/protocol of aMSN2
Jandem : another developer of emsene who is working on the gtk front end.
Alen : former emesene developer and currently lead developer of the elloquence messenger client. He wants to work on the gtk front end, the protocol layer and maybe the EFL front end too.

So this is great news, as you know, emesene is really a beautiful client that is emerging so fast in the scene, and has become a growing "competitor" to aMSN in the last months, and having the emesene team on board is a great honor!

I am also pleased to announce our collaboration with the pymsn developers (Ali Sabil, Johann Prieur and Ole Andre Vadla Ravnas). aMSN2 will be using the pymsn library for all the protocol related work. Pymsn is a greatly designed library that was the first to implement the MSNP15 protocol and already has the necessary changes (in a branch) for an MSNP16 implementation. I will join them into improving the pymsn library so we can have a growing protocol library that follows aMSN2's features.

Finally, here is a link to a screencast showcasing both the GTK and the EFL front ends of aMSN2.. Note that for now only the login screen and contact list are implemented (partially) :
http://www.amsn-project.net/~kakaroto/edje/amsn2-v4.mpeg
I hope you enjoy this video!

You can also have a look at this screencast of Elloquence, the client being built by Alen, as well as screenshots/screencasts of it in the following link :
http://kakaroto.homelinux.net/~kakaroto/elloquence/
Or you can run emesene/elloquence to see what aMSN2 might look like when you choose the gtk front end, once the work is completed.

Thank you!  
KaKaRoTo


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: H@t Trick on June 12, 2008, 05:47:15 am
This is great news!! The EFL looks great!, Hopefully it looks and feels as good on Windows. I am hoping for a XUL (and Gecko instead of Webkit...no need to discuss the merits of either one though) front end also though.
I wish I could say I can't wait, but thanks to the amazing work of the aMSN dev team SVN is making the wait quite easy, which is a very good thing!!
Keep up the great work and continue leading the way in IM apps!

And to the emesene guys, welcome to the aMSN community!!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Daniel15 on June 12, 2008, 06:25:11 am
Awesome, glad to see a public announcement finally :D
Hehe :P


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Giskard on June 12, 2008, 11:38:35 am
Wow! Sounds awesome. Good luck and thanks for your hard work to all amsn devs (specially kakaroto).


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: BigMadWolf on June 12, 2008, 02:12:19 pm
Yipee, you're leaving tcl/tk :P Anyway, thank you for all your work, it's great.

I think collaboration is the key if we really want an alternative client close the official one in term of provided features. As it is supported by freedesktop.org and the Telepathy framework, using pymsn as the base library is IMHO the best choice ever.

Now that some emesene devs are joining and that a GTK UI will be developped for AMSN2, what's next for emesene? Project abandonned (especially libemesene), or just a fork of the UI?

I would be glad to follow amsn2's dev., so I'm registering to the mailing-list :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 12, 2008, 05:34:59 pm
Hi everyone! I am a new aMSN developer.
I will do my best to create a Qt 4 front-end.

In the beginning I will keep the GUI simple,
but I'm planning to implement skinning, animations and
I'm planning to make use of the Graphics View framework of Qt.

If you want to help me with the Qt GUI, give me a yell!

PS: I won't be actively working on the GUI this month because I have to finish exams and my GSOC project first


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Kreuger on June 12, 2008, 06:52:52 pm
I can't wait to try this out.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: dx on June 12, 2008, 08:53:29 pm
Quote from: "BigMadWolf"
Now that some emesene devs are joining and that a GTK UI will be developped for AMSN2, what's next for emesene? Project abandonned (especially libemesene), or just a fork of the UI?


I won't abandon it. We'd like to do some experiments with the emesenelib design, so it will stay alive for sure. BTW, amsn2 will be designed to allow different "protocol" implementations, so we may make emesenelib better than pymsn and use it instead :twisted:

About "fork of the UI", I think we'll copy some of the most complex modules, and rewrite the simpler ones.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 12, 2008, 09:20:34 pm
@H@t Trick : thx! the EFL should look the same on windows since it's just a canvas! The XUL/Gecko thing.. you're welcome to create one if you'd like!
@Daniel15, @Giskard, @Kreuger : thanks!
@BigMadWolf, welcome to the forums and thanks! I didn't want to say anything about the future of emesene, I'll leave that task to them! But it seems like there are different views on that.
@profoX: welcome to the team! :) thanks for doing this, the first implementation looks nice in QT4 ;)

@everyone : btw, dx is an emesene developer if you didn't understand it...

@dx : yeah, it could be possible to change to emesenelib.. but I don't know if it will be possible for emesenelib to become better than pymsn (bwahahaha:p). Anyways, I suppose you guys should discuss the future of emesene because it seems you're not agreeing on everything.
Thanks for joining the team and welcome!
p.s.: send me your SF username so I can add you to the team members so you get access to the pubilc amsn svn.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: rowanparker on June 12, 2008, 10:11:08 pm
Wow. :D
Been waiting for this for a long time.

I think with Tcl/Tk 8.5 aMSN actually looks quite decent but its nothing compared to that EFL demo!

Just wait, you'll have MS wanting to buy you out cos its that good ;)

Anyway, welcome to all the new devs :)
And good luck with aMSN2 :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: lucianolev on June 13, 2008, 05:34:19 am
You know... this is just like a dream!  :D

As a user of both projects I've always dreamed about both joining. And today I decided to check the forums and I found this: Not only emesene + aMsn but also a possible Qt frontend   :D   8)

I'm just learning Qt programming but I will help with the project as soon as I can  :)

Thanks and kudos to all developers for your huge effort. Let's make aMsn2 the best MSN Messenger client  of all 8)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: panda84 on June 13, 2008, 09:28:17 am
I would like to thank all the developers! I hope to see aMSN 2 and the Qt 4 front-end growing rapidly!

I'll do the best that I can to help testing / reporting bugs / writing documentation!

Bye,
Diego


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 13, 2008, 09:55:37 am
Quote from: "lucianolev"
You know... this is just like a dream!  :D

As a user of both projects I've always dreamed about both joining. And today I decided to check the forums and I found this: Not only emesene + aMsn but also a possible Qt frontend   :D   8)

I'm just learning Qt programming but I will help with the project as soon as I can  :)

Thanks and kudos to all developers for your huge effort. Let's make aMsn2 the best MSN Messenger client  of all 8)

Contact me [wesley_at_ubuntu_dot_com] if you want to try to help on the Qt 4 front-end.
I could use some help because I have a lot of work to do on other things as well.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: drf on June 13, 2008, 10:46:26 am
Quote from: "profoX"

Contact me [wesley_at_ubuntu_dot_com] if you want to try to help on the Qt 4 front-end.
I could use some help because I have a lot of work to do on other things as well.


You got mail


Title: Using EFL is a very, very bad idea
Post by: Lobotomik on June 13, 2008, 11:57:43 am
EFL is a very, very bad idea, and your justification for using it does not hold water. You say:
Quote
GTK did not fit the requirement of being able to have a background image on a text widget (unless doing a lot of hacking and reimplementing the text widget)...

Which is the reason that supposedly leads you to EFL. Then you say:
Quote
For those who do not know what it is, the EFL is the Enlightenement Foundation Libraries. It's a set of libraries that makes building UIs such a beauty! It only has one.. euhh.. two... humm.. a few problems :
...
3 - we cannot embed an image inside a text widget.. so no smileys support...

Hey! It seems that EFL has exactly the same problem as GTK! Fortunately you seem to have found a solution:
Quote
the last one (embeded images/smileys) is resolved with another solution : use webkit (html engine) for drawing the contact list and chat window text widgets....
I think, however, you will add these problems:
    * Hardly anybody knows, or remotely cares about, EFL.

    * An EFL application will look martian in any popular desktop. Just look at how nice Emesene looks in Gnome, compared with the clunky feeling of the (more powerful) aMSN.

    * There's very nice things in GTK and Qt like gstreamer, phonon, cairo, arthur, clutter etc. which you will probably miss.

    * The world is moving to smaller computing formats: MIDS, netbooks, cellphones. Your choice of EFL would force the porting and addition of a rather sizeable library to anybody interested on running aMSN2.

As for curing problem (3) by embedding Webkit, you might do exactly the same with GTK (and possibly more easily with KDE, who are the original writers of the Webkit).

Reimplementing in Python is a good idea, which brings you the opportunity to kick an aging, clunky language into the trashcan, and finally let aMSN blend in nicely with the desktop.  But that is not what you will achieve with your choice of toolkit. With EFL, I predict slow progress and an ugly, clunky app. I hope Emesene developers carry on with their work in producing an excellent MSN client and add the missing bits soon, because I believe that is the way to go. Why they should drop their goal and jump into this project that has nothing done yet, but is already painting itself into a corner, I just cannot fathom.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 13, 2008, 12:21:14 pm
Don't worry. You are free to use which front-end you want.
A Gtk+ and Qt 4 front-end are in the making already.
It's not because the main aMSN developers loves some special toolkit that you will have to use it.
The Gtk+ and Qt 4 front-ends will probably always find maintainers so it will stay maintained as well.


Title: Re: Using EFL is a very, very bad idea
Post by: kakaroto on June 13, 2008, 03:57:43 pm
Thanks all for the comments!! :)
I'm also happy to see a lot of QT people here... I always saw the GTK folks yelling and requesting a GTK front end, but never the QT guys...and the QT front end is looking so nice now!! :D

Quote from: "Lobotomik"
EFL is a very, very bad idea, and your justification for using it does not hold water. You say:
Quote
GTK did not fit the requirement of being able to have a background image on a text widget (unless doing a lot of hacking and reimplementing the text widget)...

Which is the reason that supposedly leads you to EFL. Then you say:
Quote
For those who do not know what it is, the EFL is the Enlightenement Foundation Libraries. It's a set of libraries that makes building UIs such a beauty! It only has one.. euhh.. two... humm.. a few problems :
...
3 - we cannot embed an image inside a text widget.. so no smileys support...

Hey! It seems that EFL has exactly the same problem as GTK!



@Lobotomik : This is why we kept amsn2 a secret for so long, because I don't want to hear trolls flaming... and this is also why the main point here in amsn2 is that it's multi-front-end!!! I thought this would finally please everyone, but it seems when someone just wants to troll, he'll find a way to troll anyway!
Go read the post completely, do not stop at the first sentence that talks about EFL... take a look at the screencast and rethink about what you said...
First, the GTK limitation is not the same as EFL at all, GTK doesn't allow a text widget (chat window) to have a background image (only plain white/red/whatever color background).. while EFL allows this very easily but you can't embed an image inside a text widget, like for inserting a smiley in the middle of the text.

Quote
* Hardly anybody knows, or remotely cares about, EFL.

wrong, a lot of people know and do care about EFL, if you don't know or care about it, it doesn't mean everybody is like you!

Quote
* An EFL application will look martian in any popular desktop. Just look at how nice Emesene looks in Gnome, compared with the clunky feeling of the (more powerful) aMSN.

so ? a QT app might look alien in KDE or a GTK app would look alien in Gnome, and in my case, where I use E17, both QT and GTK would look alien... anyways, aMSN never looked 'integrated'... if you use gnome, you can just use the GTK front end, if you have KDE, then use the QT front end, if you want something different, something that looks like more like WLM, then use EFL, the choice is yours!

Quote
* There's very nice things in GTK and Qt like gstreamer, phonon, cairo, arthur, clutter etc. which you will probably miss.

EFL also has a gstreamer element and we can use cairo or clutter or opengl or whatever for rendering our window with no effort whatsoever...
you should read up before stating wrong stuff

Quote
* The world is moving to smaller computing formats: MIDS, netbooks, cellphones. Your choice of EFL would force the porting and addition of a rather sizeable library to anybody interested on running aMSN2.

again, read up before stating wrong stuff.. The InDT Nokia Research department is using the EFL extensively, EFL works and is so fast on the Nokia internet tablets, it also works well on openmoko and there never was any need for porting it.. just compile and run... there is a huge set of libraries but it's modularity, they are all small...


About using webkit for gtk, yeah, but unless you draw the whole window, it's useless...  my idea was to use webkit only for the output text widget...

Quote

Reimplementing in Python is a good idea, which brings you the opportunity to kick an aging, clunky language into the trashcan, and finally let aMSN blend in nicely with the desktop. But that is not what you will achieve with your choice of toolkit. With EFL, I predict slow progress and an ugly, clunky app. I hope Emesene developers carry on with their work in producing an excellent MSN client and add the missing bits soon, because I believe that is the way to go. Why they should drop their goal and jump into this project that has nothing done yet, but is already painting itself into a corner, I just cannot fathom.


You're just rambling! Again, read my post! WE didn't choose any toolkit, YOU choose the toolkit you want!
And you have no reason to 'predict' slow progress with EFL.. and uglyness? clunky? did you see the screencast ? seriously! I don't think that looked ugly.. or maybe it was, but it was the skin I made, not because of EFL...
and did you notice when I kept expanding/collapsing the groups in the contact list? doing it as fast as I can will collapse/expand the groups, with all the animations and my CPU will be used to a maximum of 2%... no toolkit can beat that! oh, and it was software rendering, not even using hardware acceleration for doing that.. which I could have if I wanted to!
If you want emesene to be worked on, then you're missing the whole point, if they decided to join us is because they think amsn2 is the way to go, it's a project that will supercede anything currently existing!
Again, I think you're just an emesene/gnome fanboy who didn't even finish reading my post and decided to start trolling...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Fenix-TX on June 13, 2008, 04:16:15 pm
I'm very amazing with the screencasts! EFL sounds and looks very nice. And it's nice to see differents GUI for an application, that's rocks!

And welcome new developers!! aMSN is growing and growing more!! Thanks to all devs and aMSN team!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Fabioamd87 on June 13, 2008, 06:07:42 pm
ahhh finally someting goes from the good side.
I'm using emesene from many months because of the slow of amsn client...
I dont know the reason but i think is the tlc/tk on my ubuntu system.
another reason of my choise is that emesene is growing very fast

have 2 different project implementing the wheel on every fu***ng feature is really BAD
I will choose aMsn + gtk (python + gtk is the best choise on my ubuntu system)
BUT I need an importer for emesene log, otherwise i must still continue to use emesene

sorry for my bad english skill


ps: amsn and emesene have a really good developers, i think amsn2 can be very good!


Title: Download
Post by: mattmill30 on June 13, 2008, 08:00:59 pm
Hi, is the amsn2 development project available for alpha distribution?

If so, which front end would you recommend for which OS, e.g. which of the technologies is readily available for Linux, Windows, Mac, etc.

And finally, where can the packages be downloaded from? are they in source and if so which compilers/dev libraries do we need to compile it for our native OS's.

Thanks.

PS: if this has already been written into a guide, my apologies, please can you post a link to the relative guide, thanks.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 13, 2008, 10:58:50 pm
Hi mattmill30,
amsn2 source code is available in SVN (http://amsn-project.net/wiki/SVN replace the last 'amsn' with 'amsn2' in the SVN URL).
The front ends are for now :
efl for linux, cocoa for mac, qt4 for windows... we also have gtk if you want (./amsn2.py -f gtk)
there are no packages, just source code.. it's python so you don't need to compile anything...
aMSN2 is still in its first days, so it's not yet stable or complete, you can't use it to chat yet, you can only connect and look at your contact list...
If you want to test the EFL front end, there's a README file in there...


Title: Re: Using EFL is a very, very bad idea
Post by: dx on June 14, 2008, 12:40:34 am
Our expert IRC trolls and forum users are telling that amsn2 is not a good name, because they already think that everything with "amsn" in the name is "ugly". I am not suggesting you to use "emesene", nor to leave "amsn". At least change the meaning of that A (who is that "alvaro"?)



Quote from: "Lobotomik"
EFL is a very, very bad idea,


Since you have trolled kakaroto unintentionally, this is my point of view: EFL is just one of the selectable frontends. Call it obscure, alien, whatever. But from a developer point of view, EFL is exciting, fun to code, and clearly the future. Also, it's the most flexible alternative available. It seems that the amsn team likes to design the GUI freely, regardless of users saying it's ugly because it lacks antialiasing. edit: Of course this new toolkit renders fonts properly, with antialiasing and everything. I meant that tk is ugly because before version 8.5, etc.

Quote from: "Lobotomik"
Why they should drop their goal and jump into this project that has nothing done yet, but is already painting itself into a corner, I just cannot fathom.

You've got an interesting point there. Just to clarify, we won't drop emesene. That's all I can say now for sure.


Quote from: "Fabioamd87"
BUT I need an importer for emesene log, otherwise i must still continue to use emesene

That's easy, we can even use the same database file directly. But there's nothing chat-related done right now, afaik.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Spartan on June 14, 2008, 12:46:57 am
kakaroto you don't need to feed the trolls.
The people who knows and used EFL, knows how powerfull and fast it is!
I think that an EFL front end it's a GREAT decision, in my humble opinion, it's one of the best graphical toolkits around. And it's a great opportunity to show to the world what it's capable of. (I love e17 :P)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Moredhas on June 14, 2008, 02:06:14 am
I suggested this in this thread's partner on the emesene forums, and a couple of people liked it.  I thought I might suggest it here too, and explain my reasoning.

I think a good name, instead of calling it "aMSN2", would be eMSN.  aMSN came from ccMSN (according to Wikipedia), so it's name kind of inherited from that, and this version sort of comes from emesene.  More of a merging of the projects, really.  eMSN could sound like emesene if you treat the e as a sound and not a letter, and it shows the heritage of aMSN, in the way it's typed.

Just a suggestion, take it or leave it  :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 14, 2008, 04:36:37 am
Hi,
thanks dx for your clarifications :)
@Spartan : yeah, I know I shouldn't feed the troll.. but I have a really bad temper :p and I didn't want that guy to be misleading whoever comes here and reads his post and sees no explanation to what he claimed...
glad to see a fellow e17 lover :)
@Moredhas : hi and welcome to our forums...
ok, I see where this is going, I'd like to note to you and to dx, that this isn't "amsn2", this is actually "amsn", the "amsn2" is just a codename so when we talk about it, we know if we talk about the tcl/tk or the python one... it's a simply a rewrite of aMSN. It will still be released as 'amsn' but the version will be 2.x (as opposed to our 0.x versioning of now).
I don't think a name change should occur, we love amsn's name, everyone knows amsn, and the name holds its reputation, it's like a brand.... about the name  "alvaro" that dx mentionned, alvaro is the original guy who started the project, he took ccmsn, made his changes, couldn't contact the original author, so he had to fork and he named it "alvaro's messenger" after his name, thinking noone would use it anyway... but a long time ago (2 years maybe?) he said that this project is not his own anymore because of all the contribution the project received from several people and that he does not feel that it's justified to keep the client named "alvaro's messenger", so we changed the name to an unknown name.. "another messenger" or "awesome messenger", whatever you want to put there for the meaning of the letters.. but it actually just became "amsn" with no real meaning behind it...
someone from your IRC channel reported that the website's title says "alvaro's messenger", that's probably a mistake that noone ever noticed... we'll get it changed!

Anyways, about changing the name, I really don't think that it should be changed, I fully understand your motivations, you guys are emesene fans and you don't want emesene to die, or its name to be forgotten, etc... but this project is not emesene, the core stays aMSN, the aMSN team will build it, we'll make it the way we think it should be, it's our code, our design, our ideas, it's our way of dealing with the users, etc.. it all stays the same! the emesene team are the gtk maintainers, and as you know, gtk is one front end amongst others... if we had to change the name to accomodate other developers, we would end up with a project name like 'kepyeMSN" (k for KDE.. the qt front end developed by a kde developer... 'e' is for the efl.. py for pymsn that does all the protocol, eMSN for your idea of merging emesene and aMSN...) or worse....
Like I told someone earlier, the front end developers can make the about box the way they want, we'll feed the front end with a text for the about box, and they can have two frames, one with the amsn's about message, and another like "This front end was developed and brought to you by the emesene team" or whatever...
I think it's just a waste of time trying to change the name to accomodate everyone... I prefer to think of the emesene guys (or others) that join us, simply as "they joined us".. they are part of our team, they joined the big aMSN family, they joined the aMSN community that's been there for 6 or 7 years now I think... rather than seeing this as "those guys are amsn, and those others are the emesene guys".
I don't know what you think about this, but that's my opinion...

and.. I don't want to be harsh or anything or force anything on anyone, but a simple fact...  aMSN has got as of today 19,637,688 official downloads (http://sourceforge.net/top/topalltime.php?type=downloads) without counting those who download it through their distribution's repositories and those who downloaded it from our third party ftp servers and bittorrent (when we crashed sourceforge after the 0.95 release of aMSN that got slashdotted)... if we join with a project as big as aMSN in terms of userbase/community/etc.. then we could rediscuss the name change.
The whole idea, design, work comes from us.. the emesene team and others decided to join us for our work, it's not us who decided to contribute to emesene... (I've helped dx and others a lot with my knowledge of the protocol for example.. I never said they should put my name in the about box or give me credit for it or anything...)
as an example..
If microsoft were to merge with the developers of a small, new (though fast growing) company... or rather, if the developers of that company were to join microsoft because it offered them something better or that they were interested in.. I don't think they would ask microsoft to change its name...
if microsoft and apple were to merge.. that's another story...
That's just the way I see it, and I know it may sound harsh or unrespectful to some of you, I do not want to irritate anyone, just stating some facts, and I hope the message gets through without hurting anyone's feelings.
oh and by the way, although the emesene guys are the gtk maintainers, I see them as more than that, I see them as part of the aMSN family now and of course their ideas will be taking into consideration just as much as any other developer from the team. They will contribute to the core or protocol if they want to, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. So I hope you don't take my words as "they are just the gtk maintainers and they mean nothing more to us"...
Thanks for reading and sorry about the huge post (again:p)

p.s.: the emesene forum post Moredhas talked about is linked here : http://emesene.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=on09iek2a4skoqmoo94tim3iq6&topic=1248.0


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Moredhas on June 14, 2008, 05:16:38 am
This might be a stupid question, since I don't know much about how aMSN works on the inside, but since you can drop in another protocol library (like using emesenelib instead of pymsn), would it be possible to use libpurple, from Pidgin, and have aMSN access Yahoo, AIM, and the others Pidgin supports?  I probably wouldn't want to, since I haven't used Yahoo for years, but a lot of people use Pidgin because it's multi-protocol.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 14, 2008, 05:54:17 am
Hi,
such a short answer to such a short post.. lol :)
Anyways, your question is not stupid.. but if you search a bit the forum and maybe the amsn-devel mailing list too... you'll see that we have previously discussed this type of thing and the general idea is "do not go multi protocol".. I won't repeat my reasons here because it's late and I'm tired of typing.. but just read this thread instead : http://www.amsn-project.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4512
about the 'another protocol library', I think one library is enough, as explained in the other thread, the idea is to have the layers separated, a good design, but without the intention of using this ability that we gain by being well structured. We go with pymsn because it's pretty good, pretty complete, and very well designed.


Title: KMess and aMNS 0.98
Post by: panda84 on June 14, 2008, 09:09:27 am
Quote from: "kakaroto"
I'm also happy to see a lot of QT people here... I always saw the GTK folks yelling and requesting a GTK front end, but never the QT guys...and the QT front end is looking so nice now!! :D


Maybe KMess (http://www.kmess.org/) did a good job to fulfill Qt / KDE users expectations, so there hasn't been a lot of people asking for a Qt front-end so far. Did you get in touch also with them to cooperate where it is possible?

Just another little question... Is aMSN 0.98 going to be released or will it be dropped to concentrate on aMSN 2 development?

Regards,
Diego


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on June 14, 2008, 09:29:17 am
Since amsn2 is far from being released, we'll release amsn0.98 before.


Title: About aMSN bug tracker
Post by: pacho on June 14, 2008, 10:27:30 am
aMSN currently uses sourceforge bug tracker http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=add&group_id=54091&atid=472655 , I would suggest use other bugtracker like launchpad.net for example. I find it easier to use, for example, searches are usually easier (at least for me) and I think that it has more order.

Thanks a lot


Title: Technical questions
Post by: boyska on June 14, 2008, 11:10:46 am
I like the idea of "joining forces" VERY good, that's the only way to have a great msn client.
But I have some technical questions ( I'm not an expert, but I can code in python and I'm developing a litlle plugin):
1. we'll have different guis, that's very good, but... how about plugins? A lot of plugins use the GUI, even if just to put an icon or something like that. How will aMsn2 (please change this name  :P ) handle this? If I use the gtk gui, can I use a EFL plugin? (of course this will not integrate perfectly, and of course this will require a lot of library and so on... but sometimes we *want* a plug-in, and I don't want to choose the interface just because it is the only one that has that plugin) Or are you planning to have an "abstract UI interface", so that for example adding an item to the toolbar will be something like "aMsn2UI.toolbar.add_item(...)".
I would prefer the second way, obviously, but this will require much more work to GUI developers.

2. will aMsn allow different protocol implementations ( yes, i'm talking about emesenelib :D ) ? I think that this will be very important because in this way emesene could easyly be ported to a "flavour" of aMsn2 (just choose emesenelib and emesenegui ;-) ). I'm not a fanboy, I just think that this will save a lot of devs!

My compliments for the idea, I'll try to do something useful for this great project


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on June 14, 2008, 11:16:14 am
We use the forum as a bug tracker...


Title: Let's talk about name
Post by: boyska on June 14, 2008, 11:25:46 am
I think that this is not the right place to talk about it, so I propose a new topic to talk about the name (should we change it or keep it?). This thread will soon become confusing and I think that there's still a bit of confusion (or at least some aspects are not clear to me... i'll watch the code as soon as possible)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: pacho on June 14, 2008, 12:40:49 pm
Quote from: "billiob"
We use the forum as a bug tracker...


OK, thanks for information :-)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 14, 2008, 03:24:57 pm
Hi again,
@boyska, you're right, this isn't the place to talk about bugtracking, etc... and also, we're still in the start of the project, so we're far from those details.
About plugins, if the design is done correctly, aMSN should work the same with any front end, so a plugin that adds a feature should work the same with all front ends... but I think we could have a plugin setting (like description, author, etc..) that states what front ends it's compatible with.. so if the plugin is front end specific, then it can be set to be used only with that front end. Anyways, all those are implementation details.
I just want to remind you that aMSN2 is a code name, the application will still be called aMSN... it would just be aMSN version 2.x...
About protocol implementations, like I said before, we'll only use one protocol library, that's far enough as we don't need to implement/maintain two protocol libs.. also read my previous posts for explaining why we want to do it this way and why multi protocol is a bad idea!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 14, 2008, 08:04:50 pm
I've done some work on the Qt 4 front-end today :D

Check this screencast to view my work so far:
http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/files/amsn_qt4_preview1.ogg

Or have some screenshots, but then you won't see my sweet fade effect :cry:
or the slide effect in the temporarily very ugly contact list :roll:

This is just a test style! If you think it's ugly, don't worry, because by default it will use your system theme
(on Windows, Mac OS X, KDE and GNOME [only from Qt 4.5 or with a backported QGtkStyle])
It will also become themable a bit by using Qt StyleSheets.

(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview0_qt4_frontend.png)(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview1_qt4_frontend.png)(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview2_qt4_frontend.png)

Comments are welcome. I prefer positive ones. :D but negative ones are fine too.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Moredhas on June 14, 2008, 10:11:51 pm
profoX's Qt theme looks very neat, both in the "Wow!  That's neat!" sense, and the tidy sense :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: lucianolev on June 15, 2008, 01:53:00 am
Hi! I've been following both forums threads and I could not resist to give my opinion.

1. Regarding the name change, I think that coming up with a good name (btw, i like eMSN!) and new fresh website would be great. aMSN2, as stated here, will be not only a COMPLETE rewrite in another language, but also new people working on it. I know that aMSN has gain popularity and it's important as a brand but I think that if marketing stuff is managed correctly, aMSN will not decrease its user base but on the contrary, new adopters will come. As an example, look to Pidgin, it's name change was positive in every aspect (i think).
Also, just imagine a free software messenger client with latest protocol support and multi GUI support, it will be impossible to be ignored! It will be, by far, the most used messenger client at least in GNU/Linux and MacOSX, and it can even rival the official client in Windows! So kararoto, please reconsider this idea, no matter what's the name, if you manage to build a client with the characteristics said before, you got no competition.
Finally, take into account that those how didn't like aMSN for its look & feel, it will be difficult to transmit them that now aMSN does not look the same as before; just think of non-tech people, who don't know what's gtk, python or qt.

2. About the client goals and design in general, I think the most reasonable idea is to concentrate in only one protocol implementation and put all the efforts there. I understand that many people could prefer some toolkit from another but does it really make sense to work on multiple implementations? :shock: IMHO, it's just duplication of work. So please, current emesene and aMSN developers, and everyone who is thinking in creating an live messenger client, work together on improving pymsn! :D
So, in my opinion the design should be:
Protocol Lib (like an improved pymsn) -> Core & GUI abstraction classes -> Frontends
Also, you should keep the idea of keeping it simple, Live Messenger-like interface and NOT multiprotocol. IMHO, emesene has accomplished this quite right.

So, what do you think?  :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 15, 2008, 02:36:58 am
Hi,
again, I disagree about the name change, I don't want to talk more about this since I already said everything I wanted to say on the subject. If other aMSN developers start to think it should be done, then I might reconsider, but as far as I know, all aMSN developers want to keep the same name (it was already discussed in a thread on the mailing list a long time ago).
About the goals, I agree and that's what was planned from the start.. single protocol,multiple front ends, improve the protocol lib (whatever we need for aMSN, we'll implement it in pymsn, so don't worry about "pymsn lacks X or Y").
There won't be much code duplication, the design is so that the front ends will do the minimum and everything will be in the core.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 15, 2008, 02:41:00 am
Quote from: "lucianolev"
Hi! I've been following both forums threads and I could not resist to give my opinion.

Hi lucianolev! I am a very new developer myself (working on the Qt4 frontend) so my answers might not be 100% accurate, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Quote from: "lucianolev"
1. Regarding the name change, I think that coming up with a good name (btw, i like eMSN!) and new fresh website would be great. aMSN2, as stated here, will be not only a COMPLETE rewrite in another language, but also new people working on it. I know that aMSN has gain popularity and it's important as a brand but I think that if marketing stuff is managed correctly, aMSN will not decrease its user base but on the contrary, new adopters will come. As an example, look to Pidgin, it's name change was positive in every aspect (i think).
Also, just imagine a free software messenger client with latest protocol support and multi GUI support, it will be impossible to be ignored! It will be, by far, the most used messenger client at least in GNU/Linux and MacOSX, and it can even rival the official client in Windows! So kararoto, please reconsider this idea, no matter what's the name, if you manage to build a client with the characteristics said before, you got no competition.
Finally, take into account that those how didn't like aMSN for its look & feel, it will be difficult to transmit them that now aMSN does not look the same as before; just think of non-tech people, who don't know what's gtk, python or qt.

I personally don't really care about a name change. It has both positive and negative effects. What I care about is the actual code. The fact that aMSN 2 is a complete rewrite should not mean that the name has to be changed. Either way I am fine with it. The main aMSN developers have already stated their reasons for wanting to keep the aMSN name. If you think those reasons are invalid, be prepared for a lengthy discussion with them. But in the end, does it really matter so much? ...maybe we should make a poll...

Quote from: "lucianolev"
2. About the client goals and design in general, I think the most reasonable idea is to concentrate in only one protocol implementation and put all the efforts there. I understand that many people could prefer some toolkit from another but does it really make sense to work on multiple implementations? :shock: IMHO, it's just duplication of work. So please, current emesene and aMSN developers, and everyone who is thinking in creating an live messenger client, work together on improving pymsn! :D
So, in my opinion the design should be:
Protocol Lib (like an improved pymsn) -> Core & GUI abstraction classes -> Frontends
Also, you should keep the idea of keeping it simple, Live Messenger-like interface and NOT multiprotocol. IMHO, emesene has accomplished this quite right.

As far as I am aware, those are _exactly_ the plans. KaKaRoTo has already stated that eventhough aMSN 2 is going to be very modular, the main developers will only work on making it the best MSN client ever, because their reasoning is that it's better to have a client that implements one protocol (the MSN protocol) perfectly, than it is to have a client that implements many protocols, but not one protocol works like it should, because there are too much protocols to work on.

We also have some teams internally. The core aMSN developers are working on improving pymsn and on the aMSN core, and we have different teams for the front-ends, so everyone can focus on their speciality. The current front-ends already get their data from the core and from a GUI abstraction class.

edit: oops, KaKaRoTo is faster than me in responding to your message :roll:


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: lucianolev on June 15, 2008, 03:24:58 am
@profoX and kakaroto:

Well, regarding the name change, i was just pointing out why i think the name change is the way to go. The only downside that I found about changing the name it's the effort and time to do this, which I respect. Also, I fully agree that the code it's far more important. However, a poll could also be a good idea.

As regards the design, no complains.   :D  My doubt was primary because of some posts in emesene forum (http://emesene.org/smf/index.php/topic,1248.30.html) which implies that there will be multiple backends, pymsn and emesenelib :shock: I really think that be should minimize abstraction layers when it makes sense...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 15, 2008, 07:15:33 am
yeah, there's no need for two backends.. I think the emesene guys are just dreaming about emesenelib not dying and being used somewhere :p seriously though, the design will make it possible to change backends, but it's only so we can have a good layered system, it's just the design, not the purpose...
problem is that the amsn2 design was made taking into account a lot of experience trying to maintain aMSN... development of aMSN slowed down a lot lately because it was badly designed and maintaining the code required a lot of work (== amsn's code is crap). The biggest challenge we had was that the GUI was doing protocol stuff and protocol functions were calling the GUI functions... it was a mess.... we did a lot of refactoring, a HUGE amount, it's much better now, but it's still crap and GUI and protocol are still mixed, so it's a bit hard...
When we decided that we should do amsn2 (back in 2006 I think.. or even earlier), we said that one important thing was to have layers, and have events used to talk between gui and protocol... and that's what we're doing here...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: olskar on June 15, 2008, 11:34:39 pm
I am not really sure what this new version brings but "It will not be in tcl/tk" is enough for me to love you :D


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Auria on June 16, 2008, 12:54:06 am
Great news, good job!
Dropping tcl/tk was IMO the best decision possible.

Looking forward to see more of it


Title: same name, new codename
Post by: boyska on June 16, 2008, 02:50:58 pm
I see that the name will never be changed (and they have their reason to do so...);
anyway some of the "change" ideas are good: so why don't we try to take the best of two worlds?
What I'm proposing is a new "codename" or "subtitle" or "motto", like for example "Amarok - rediscover your music".

Doing something like "aMsn2 - AMaSiNg" (ok, that sucks, just to explain) will, at one time, underline that this IS aMsn and that this is something NEW.
But this is just marketing stuff, and there's no hurry. Long life to aMsn!

What do you think about it?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: WM-666 on June 16, 2008, 03:53:43 pm
looks very promising !
I hope the features (smilies, webcam, voice,...) will be there too !


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 16, 2008, 05:34:42 pm
The name says aMSN, so we'll deliver the same features!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Moredhas on June 17, 2008, 05:01:33 am
Okay, I know it's early days yet, and I don't mean to pressure anyone to hurry up, but does anyone know, vaguely, when we might see a working beta release?  I don't expect it tomorrow, or even next month, but it would still be nice to know :P


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 17, 2008, 05:10:56 am
Moredhas : how do you expect us to know? :p
seriously, it could be 'working' tomorrow, or in 3 months... noone knows until it's done... it depends on everyone involved, how much free time they have, and what task they'll be doing, and how much time it will take them them to do it, and how many problems they run into, etc...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Cypher on June 17, 2008, 07:07:20 am
Yes ! News about aMSN2 :) Sweet... Long live the Qt4 front-end !

Thank you all for your amazing work.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Moredhas on June 17, 2008, 09:43:58 am
Ah, sorry.  I was just curious about a target date, or something similar :P.  One of those things open source projects announce to keep the masses quiet, and then ignore as it goes by :P


Title: Micropledge and Cofundos
Post by: 1009 on June 17, 2008, 02:22:17 pm
I feel amsn2 will be a revolution so I try to put my ideas into these changes. :)

I think amsn2 should be integrated with projects like micropledge.com and cofundos.org.

In synthesis, with these two systems users can donate or pledge to a specific part of an open source project. They don’t have to donate to the entire project.

A concrete example: in amsn2 there are gtk, qt, efl... I'm an user and I want to donate to improve only my favorite GUI because another one, that I don't like, is growing to fast .. :)
With the traditional donating system I can't do it, while with micropledge or cofundos I can.

In my opinion, the problem of amsn2 (and open source projects in general) is not the quality of the code but the speed. The quality become good but the developing time is too slow :(
Developers have also a real life and don't have full time to code.

Lots of guys here want amsn2 ready tomorrow (for example: myself) but now they can do quite nothing to solve the lack of time in developers' real life.

The self-destructive mind process is like this:
"I don't want to donate to this GUI or this specific part of the project, that i don't like, so i don't donate at all"

I think that the multi-front-end approach of amsn2 is perfect to inaugurate these innovative open source payment systems. :)


PS
I think micropledge is better than cofundos because it will have soon an integration with a nice bug tracker: trac. http://blog.micropledge.com/2008/02/bug-trackers-get-bounties/

only for trolls message:
I'm not advertising two fraudulent market projects that try to steal money from OSS, so if you don't know what they are, look around in their websites: http://micropledge.com/ and http://cofundos.org/ :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: cquilliam on June 17, 2008, 02:27:40 pm
Wow, very exciting news indeed.  I am definatly looking forward to the multi-frontend, as good as amsn looks today, Tk does look dated, even with 8.5's antialiasing.

Congrats to all the developers, and I'm so happy to see all the different projects joining forces to create one msn client to rule them all.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: clookie on June 17, 2008, 03:16:30 pm
hey, the little movie looks great
if that's going to be it wo_o
btw: alencool's link's don't work anymore :-)
you guys are really the best!
aMSN 4ever


Title: ereseva
Post by: 1009 on June 17, 2008, 09:49:51 pm
Why don't you integrate ereseva GUI?
http://code.google.com/p/ereseva/wiki/Screenshots


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 17, 2008, 11:00:44 pm
@1009 : ereseva is another client, if they want to help, they can.. we're not "integrating other client's UI", we just have a front end maintainer team and they do it the way they want, the team for the gtk front end is part of the emesene team, but it doesn't mean they'll use emesene' GUI code either...
About donations, interesting stuff, but we don't take donations... we use sourceforge's donation system, and it's on a per-user method.. if you want to help one of the developers who has been helpful for you, you can do it (if they accept donations)... but the project itself doesn't take any donations...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: why.arent.guests.allowed on June 18, 2008, 12:28:01 am
This seems to be great news! On the other hand this means it will also take a while for the next release... heheh
So congratulations to you all in joining efforts.
I really like the <core>+<gui> approach and I believe in time this will attract more users since everyone can have their favorite GUI.



My 0.09€ on some of the things that were mentioned here (no need to reply, just some food for thought):

- About the name, for me it doesn't matter if the project name changes or not. If the devs are happy, then I'm happy. And although some people don't like aMSN because of the GUI (and associate the name with the tcl/tk GUI)... that will change with time when they see the new interfaces.

- FWIW, in the main page there is still this artifact: <title>Alvaro's Messenger</title> Maybe you will want to update this?

- Possible slogans (if you were looking for one): <aMSN, advancing messaging one step further> or <aMSN, connecting people over closed source paths>

- About the multi client support, and I really *don't* care about this, but if there is a multiprotocol library and its of easy integration and it attracts users (aka pidgyn fanbase).... wouldn't it be worth to spend some time to attract thousands of new users? Hey, maybe that library devs would care to give a hand to aMSN as well?




I don't care about the name, the GUI nor the multiprotocol.
What made me use aMSN was the fact that it has/had the most advanced features, namely ***webcam*** support =)
But I also like very much the "work and feel", that is, the way things work and the small things (e.g. working with UIM for japanese language, being able to check logs, smileys, chat in tabs, etc)

I can't wait for the day when aMSN will support bidireccional synchronized audio-video ;p


Best wishes to all the developers, collaborators and contributers!!!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 18, 2008, 03:18:18 am
Hi super.long.username,
Thanks for your thoughts (or food for thought :p)
1 - yeah, I don't want to change the name :p
2 - yeah, emesene users/devs told me about this, and I'll change the title of the website to simple 'aMSN  - Open your communication'
3 - hehe, nice slogan, we had a really good one written on the aMSN t-shirts that were made for FOSDEM : "Open your communication".. which is why I thought I'd put that in the website's title...
4 - well.. if someone wants to 'fork' aMSN and implement an interface to libpurple, they are free to do it, that's what open source is all about, right? but I personally think (and many users share that opinion) that we should concentrate on giving the best MSN client ever... having multi proto will just make us loose the focus... read my reply on that other thread, I think it summarizes it well enough.

Yes, we do know that the advanced feature compatibility of aMSN is what draws most of the users... webcam support is our number one feature, and soon, we'll be the first and the number one client with compatible real time audio chat!!
About 'synchronized' audio+video, I have a working branch on the SVN that does that... it only supports receiving for now, but we can receive audio+video correctly and it works great! It uses libao for the audio processing, because no matter what, libsnack is just libcrap... we currently have a google summer of code project for a refactoring of libao and merging it with libao2 (used by mplayer) in order to replace libsnack with a much better library... as well as provide support for audio input. Once it's done, then we can have aMSN send audio too.. the only problem will be video, as it uses WMV3 and there is no open source WMV3 encoder available yet... we use ffmpeg for decoding wmv3 frames and I have a patched version of ffmpeg that does the encoding too, but it's able to encode the first frame then crashes encoding the subsequent frames... the 'bug' is in the fact that there's a missing function for implementing the intra-frames... the frames that only show the "movement" of the image...
But since that code is already available for the decoder it should be fairly easy to do it for the encoder, but we need someone with knowledge of ffmpeg's internals... once we find such a person, it could be a matter of minutes for implementing that...

about aMSN 2, we also currently have a google summer of code working on implementing a MSN webcam conference plugin for farsight 2 and integrating it with pymsn.. yesterday he was able to make pymsn accept a webcam invitation with msnp2p, so he's not too far from implementing that... hopefully by the end of summer, we'll have a working webcam support in pymsn...

p.s.: we'll still keep maintaining aMSN 0.x because we don't want to loose our edge, userbase by falling behind because of amsn2 development....

thanks for commenting :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 18, 2008, 06:19:14 am
Toma posted two messages here, I moved them to this thread : http://www.amsn-project.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5330
@Toma : I'd like to keep the efl discussion in its own thread, so let's talk about it there! :D


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Mandriva_User on June 18, 2008, 10:07:37 am
Quote from: "profoX"
I've done some work on the Qt 4 front-end today :D

Check this screencast to view my work so far:
http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/files/amsn_qt4_preview1.ogg

Or have some screenshots, but then you won't see my sweet fade effect :cry:
or the slide effect in the temporarily very ugly contact list :roll:

This is just a test style! If you think it's ugly, don't worry, because by default it will use your system theme
(on Windows, Mac OS X, KDE and GNOME [only from Qt 4.5 or with a backported QGtkStyle])
It will also become themable a bit by using Qt StyleSheets.

(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview0_qt4_frontend.png)(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview1_qt4_frontend.png)(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview2_qt4_frontend.png)

Comments are welcome. I prefer positive ones. :D but negative ones are fine too.



Great!!! I can´t wait for qt4 frontend.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Cypher on June 18, 2008, 11:12:28 am
It really seems that the Qt4 front-end has a large fan base. This means that it will be maintained properly, and will maybe become the official supported one ? Qt4 is a very powerful toolkit that allows a lot of eye-candy.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on June 18, 2008, 01:12:17 pm
Quote from: "Cypher"
It really seems that the Qt4 front-end has a large fan base. This means that it will be maintained properly, and will maybe become the official supported one ? Qt4 is a very powerful toolkit that allows a lot of eye-candy.

aMSN has a large fan base, that doesn't mean it can be maintained properly. To be maintained, it just needs developers! That's the same for front-ends.

About eye-candy, EFL is far better...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 18, 2008, 01:18:57 pm
Quote from: "billiob"
About eye-candy, EFL is far better...

...is your opinion :P it's more flashy and it has a really interesting way of theming, I'll give you that.

By the way, currently only a bit of QSS theming is possible with the Qt 4 front-end,
but it'll probably become more advanced than that. But not right away.
Here's a theme I was testing to mimic Windows Live Messenger a bit:
(http://85.17.105.113/~wesley/images/amsn_preview3_qt4_frontend.png)
You can test the theme (or style, rather) in SVN if you want.

EFL will probably stay default, as that is what the main aMSN developers are developing,
and using Qt for default will probably just cause a GNOME/KDE (GTK+/Qt) flamewar anyway ;)

PS: Right now, Qt 4 is default on Windows, and Cocoa on Mac. EFL on Linux.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: NoWhereMan on June 18, 2008, 02:24:10 pm
please, people stop with all these my-toolkit-is-the-best debates;

qt is what kde (and probably MS) users will prefer, while gtk+ will be probably what GNOM'ers will choose: both the DEs have a large fan-base.

There is no point discussing this, let's just all wish all the luck to the project, to provide a new cool reliable back-end :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 18, 2008, 04:11:50 pm
hehe... NWM, it wasn't a debate/flame :p
Anyways, just wanted to drop an idea I had for a while, front end 'info'... we'll need that at some point if we want to have a way to let the user choose which front end he uses.. so I'm guessing a class again with :
- name
- description
- author
- module
- dependencies
- priority

The important thing in there is 'priority', this way, we can set different priorities, for example, EFL would have the higher priority, simply because if you have the EFL libs that's probably because you either use e17 or because you want to use the efl front end. If you don't have the dependencies for the EFL, then next priority will be QT or GTK...
if system is windows, QT sets itself a high priority
if system is linux, then QT and GTK will both look at the list of processes and see if they know some apps... for example : you have 20 KDE apps, and 2 gnome apps... you're probably running kde, so QT will set its priority to high and gtk will set its priority to low...
if the gnome apps are more than kde apps, then QT sets its priority to low, and gtk sets its priority to high...
note that if both kde/gnome apps are the same, or if there are none, or whatever... then they'll both have the same priority, let the dependencies decide...
if both qt/gtk deps are not available, then curses front end with the lowest priority would be taken...
of course, for mac, the cocoa front end would have the highest priority.

Just my 2c idea.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: NoWhereMan on June 18, 2008, 04:17:02 pm
Quote from: "kakaroto"
hehe... NWM, it wasn't a debate/flame :p

better stopping any intention :P

Quote
if system is linux, then QT and GTK will both look at the list of processes and see if they know some apps...


I think you may be able to check this via some environment variable


Title: Web UI
Post by: madd_matt on June 18, 2008, 05:44:32 pm
Something I've been wanting for a while is an open source web client for MSN.  While there are existing solutions online like meebo and the official webmessenger.msn.com,  I'd like something open source that I can deploy myself.

With the seperation of the frontend from aMsn, I'd be interested in developing a web UI.   I'd probably use python, and have it run through apache or lighthttpd.

I won't be able to begin immediately, but towards the second week of August I should have some spare time, and hopefully the aMsn2 code is maturing into something very nice.

I'll have to see how my schedule works out, but I hope this is something that I can achieve and contribute.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 18, 2008, 05:47:58 pm
@madd_matt:
Contact  sirdarckcat, he says he's a php developer and is interested in helping out. I asked him to try to build a 'web' front end... talk to him, maybe you can share ideas and work together on this.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 18, 2008, 06:00:52 pm
Quote from: "kakaroto"
@madd_matt:
Contact  sirdarckcat, he says he's a php developer and is interested in helping out. I asked him to try to build a 'web' front end... talk to him, maybe you can share ideas and work together on this.

Something like this would be neat. It would probably use JavaScript and Python (or PHP, but Python would probably make more sense since the aMSN 2 core will be written in Python) and use AJAX (or similar technology) for talking to the backend.

PS: Someone I know is developing something called IQuiP. It basically gives you the possibility to recompile any Qt 4 GUI application (also Python/Qt 4!) into a web application and deploy it over the internet! Very interesting stuff. It's not usable yet, but it's a promising technology :) http://www.iquip.org/ Currently it doesn't look very well, but it's about the technology behind it at the moment


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 18, 2008, 06:39:05 pm
cool, iquip looks like a great idea! but I think a native php app would be better as it will have "browser integration" :p
a qt app with iquip might look too much like a desktop app rather than a 'web interface'... + you don't know when it will be ready or if it will be good enough to support a full blown app like amsn :p
anyways, thanks for the sharng the link, it's really interesting! :D


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: why.arent.guests.allowed on June 18, 2008, 09:07:01 pm
Quote from: "kakaroto"
About 'synchronized' audio+video, I have a working branch on the SVN that does that... it only supports receiving for now, but we can receive audio+video correctly and it works great!
[mr. burns mode]Excellent...[/mr. burns] =)
I'll have to try it.

Quote from: "kakaroto"
the only problem will be video, as it uses WMV3 and there is no open source WMV3 encoder available yet... we use ffmpeg for decoding wmv3 frames and I have a patched version of ffmpeg that does the encoding too, but it's able to encode the first frame then crashes encoding the subsequent frames... the 'bug' is in the fact that there's a missing function for implementing the intra-frames... the frames that only show the "movement" of the image...
But since that code is already available for the decoder it should be fairly easy to do it for the encoder, but we need someone with knowledge of ffmpeg's internals... once we find such a person, it could be a matter of minutes for implementing that...
Just curious... are you aquainted with the ffmpeg community or have you ever sent an email asking for some volunteer? Since it's a matter of minutes it could pay off to ask someone for some "spare time"

Quote from: "kakaroto"
p.s.: we'll still keep maintaining aMSN 0.x because we don't want to loose our edge, userbase by falling behind because of amsn2 development....
thanks for commenting :)
That is good to know =)
And I'm the one who has to thank, so thank you all!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 19, 2008, 03:22:08 am
lol @ mr. burns :p
no, I'm not really aquainted with the ffmpeg community, I did ask them a few questions and some advices and they helped a lot, but that's about it...
I don't think anyone is willing to do this as it is not interesting for them, they don't care, WMV3 is the worst codec choice ever so it's useless to implement that.. and I'm guessing that implementing a WMV3 encoder means a lot of work... all we need is the small work needed for "msn-compatible wmv3" which is a small subset of the wmv3 specs...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: constantijn on June 19, 2008, 07:06:06 pm
I don't want to sound impatient but is there already a OS X preview?...or even a mock-up?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: WM-666 on June 19, 2008, 07:21:03 pm
I presume the aMSN2 svn doesn't work (yet) under Windows(XP) ?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 19, 2008, 08:12:48 pm
@constantijn : nope sorry, maybe the mac maintainer will give you more info, he seems busy lately...
@WM : the QT and GTK front ends work fine for me... but the problem is that pymsn doesn't seem to work correctly on windows, so we'll have to fix that before you can connect... hopefully this will be done soon too.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: profoX on June 19, 2008, 09:43:34 pm
Quote from: "NoWhereMan"

I think you may be able to check this via some environment variable

Yea. os.environ['DESKTOP_SESSION'] could help :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 19, 2008, 10:37:40 pm
cool, that would help indeed :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: mavk84 on June 21, 2008, 07:45:34 pm
Great news! I was saying this to my brother yesterday, then today I saw this post... emesene + aMSN !
Good luck to everybody! :D


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Zalbor on June 29, 2008, 02:35:35 pm
Great news (well, news for me!). Thank you and good luck :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: why.arent.guests.allowed on June 30, 2008, 04:29:36 pm
Quote from: "kakaroto"
About 'synchronized' audio+video, I have a working branch on the SVN that does that... it only supports receiving for now, but we can receive audio+video correctly and it works great!

I would like to try this, but which branch should I checkout?
https://amsn.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amsn/branches/


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on June 30, 2008, 06:01:28 pm
video_conf is pretty explicit


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on June 30, 2008, 06:54:54 pm
lol


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: sweetthdevil on July 06, 2008, 04:21:47 pm
Hello, Sorry if the two questions have already been asked...

Is there any blog, or any topic to follow the development of Amsn2, news function added etc etc... And is it already possible to run an svn version if so how to do it on a Ubuntu hardy.

Thanks,


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on July 06, 2008, 04:51:46 pm
To know, what's going on, it's here.
You can also have a look at the amsn-commits mailing list.

It's only a developer version.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: sweetthdevil on July 06, 2008, 11:51:28 pm
Well thanks for your reply, anyway I guess when a working version of amsn2 will available, we will know it very fast...

I just hope you will keep it simple and light...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on July 07, 2008, 08:45:17 am
For the moment it's very, very light :)


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kr0n1x on July 08, 2008, 01:19:29 pm
eheheh i'm in the video, i'm famous!!! XD

i'm waiting for this new version :) i hope i can help a bit again...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: theklegend on July 18, 2008, 06:46:15 am
This is some exiting news. I wish i could help you guys, but all I know is a low-level programming like assembly, and some C. My studies focus on hardwares and electronics. I'm sure I'll be able to help in the next few years. Or at least, for now I can help with an Arabic translation to he brand new aMSN ^^

Can't wait to try it on my Ubuntu.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Hanii Puppy on August 14, 2008, 05:14:02 am
Is there a chance that aMSN 2 (or atleast the cocoa-front end) will support using Photobooth effects over webcam like iChat does?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: H@t Trick on August 14, 2008, 05:52:47 am
Quote from: "Hanii Puppy"
Is there a chance that aMSN 2 (or atleast the cocoa-front end) will support using Photobooth effects over webcam like iChat does?


I think this is driver based, I have a Creative webcam and the app that comes with the driver allows me to do this with aMSN right now.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: snird on August 20, 2008, 12:51:53 pm
Little question: the developing of aMSN 2 is about to be with Python 3.0? and if not, there is a plan to transform from Python 2.x to 3.x in the future?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on August 20, 2008, 12:54:17 pm
For the moment, it's written using python 2.5, but i think we'll switch to python 3.0 someday in the future.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: snird on August 20, 2008, 02:02:40 pm
Why not using Python 3.0 now? in the future, it will be difficult to port from 2.x to 3.x....
Python 3.0 is much more future proof and by the time that aMSN 2 will released it be stable and very common on most of linux distributions...
And if not 3.0, at least use python 2.6 that contain many of the improvements and features that 3.0 have but without breaking the API... and in the future port from 2.6 to 3.0 will be much more easier...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on August 20, 2008, 06:03:48 pm
when pymsn will depend on version X of python, we'll switch.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: boyska on September 14, 2008, 10:50:08 pm
Quote from: "snird"
Why not using Python 3.0 now? in the future, it will be difficult to port from 2.x to 3.x....

because python 3.0 hasn't been released yet, and because even python guys says that, at the moment, everyone should work on python 2.x
Quote

And if not 3.0, at least use python 2.6 that contain many of the improvements and features that 3.0 have but without breaking the API... and in the future port from 2.6 to 3.0 will be much more easier...

even 2.6 hasn't been released yet.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: snird on September 15, 2008, 02:29:01 pm
I know this versions haven't been released yet, but in time for aMSN 2 to released this versions of python will be already exist as stable...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Sh4wn on October 03, 2008, 11:48:43 am
Quote
The recommended development model for a project that needs to support Python 2.6 and 3.0 simultaneously is as follows:

   0. You should have excellent unit tests with close to full coverage.
   1. Port your project to Python 2.6.
   2. Turn on the Py3k warnings mode.
   3. Test and edit until no warnings remain.
   4. Use the 2to3 tool to convert this source code to 3.0 syntax. Do not manually edit the output!
   5. Test the converted source code under 3.0.
   6. If problems are found, make corrections to the 2.6 version of the source code and go back to step 3.
   7. When it's time to release, release separate 2.6 and 3.0 tarballs (or whatever archive form you use for releases).

It is recommended not to edit the 3.0 source code until you are ready to reduce 2.6 support to pure maintenance (i.e. the moment when you would normally move the 2.6 code to a maintenance branch anyway).


Many people won't directly update to python 3.0 so, developing for python 3 only excludes a lot of people.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: jester on October 09, 2008, 01:18:52 am
If we update using svn does that mean we are using aMSN2?

I forget I thought it had to be activated in the past but I'm not sure.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on October 09, 2008, 01:44:51 am
no, svn is 0.98b, amsn2 is on a different repository and it doesn't look or work at all like the amsn from svn... it's not even usable yet!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: jester on October 11, 2008, 11:16:04 am
Quote from: "kakaroto"
no, svn is 0.98b, amsn2 is on a different repository and it doesn't look or work at all like the amsn from svn... it's not even usable yet!


Thanks, I fell out of the loop and wasn't updated with what's going on lately.

0.98b is the one with the latest MSN protocol? In the past it had to be turned on when it was new, but now it's default?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on October 11, 2008, 07:51:18 pm
yes, it has the latest protocol, and yes, it's on by default, and no, this is not the right thread to discuss amsn 0.98b...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: jester on October 13, 2008, 12:35:56 am
Thanks. Good luck with aMSN2.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: jeypeyy on November 09, 2008, 02:51:00 pm
Let me be the first to know when beta is out :lol:


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Tanner on January 15, 2009, 02:06:18 am
I just registered myself to the AMSN Forums...

How it's going with the development of amsn2? Please keep us informed, we are eagerly awaiting for amsn2 to be released...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on January 15, 2009, 08:37:53 am
Hi Tanner, and welcome to the forums,
As we previously said in many other threads, amsn2 is not yet ready to be released and will probably not be for a couple of years at least because the amount of work needed to finish it is really huge, and we don't have much time to spend on it either, so you just have to be patient.. or download the latest git version and try it out to see where we're at, and maybe fork the git repository and send us patches to help us improve it!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: brodock on February 06, 2009, 01:31:40 pm
if anyone is interested to see the code and help, it's here:
http://github.com/drf/amsn2/tree/master

Git is different from SVN as Git is descentralized.
This means that, you have one master repository that can be forked easily and have many "sub repositories'. This means that you don't need to ask for a write access to the main branch if you want to contribute to the project, you don't even need to ask this kind of stuff to have your code versioned, all you have to do is fork the project and do whatever change you think you might/want to do and (if you like it, ask it to be merged). If amsn2 team thinks your change is not good enough or doesn't accept it, you can still have your code an synchronize it with the master branch and still be able to have your "own version' of amsn2 with your customizations.

That's the way Git works.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Caco adrian on June 13, 2009, 01:43:58 am
When will amsn 2 be realesed!!!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: AL3X2 on June 13, 2009, 11:48:58 am
Another week of delay because of Caco adrian's question =)

You all can say him  "thanks!"


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: billiob on June 14, 2009, 03:02:30 pm
it's not delayed by a week, but by a month :)
But it's going fine as you can see here : http://github.com/drf/amsn2/network .


Title: Webcam
Post by: messajunior on July 13, 2009, 10:08:09 pm
The amsn2 will have the image of the webcam embedded in the conversation window?

[EDIT by admin] speak in english or use the appropriate section.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on July 15, 2009, 04:33:51 pm
that's not a good question.. first, we must make sure that it works correctly, then we'll see about all those features... you're asking questions wayyy too early in the development of the client..
also, we did say that amsn2 should have the same features as amsn 0.x, and since amsn 0.x already supports embeding windows in the chatwindow, then the answer is probably going to be yes!


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: houseonfire on July 28, 2009, 10:31:45 am
I cant wait for aMSN to be released. I'm just wondering if I can make a feature suggestion.
Is that ok at this point in the development?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on July 28, 2009, 01:33:46 pm
not really... wait until you can actually use it before requesting a feature for it...


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Alejandro Nova on July 29, 2009, 10:48:48 pm
Kakaroto.

I'll not ask for an immediate release ;). But, may you quench the thirst of some people who like to be informed (like me) of the progresses made by amsn2 by blogging about it? (I'm thinking about something like Planet KDE). It's nice to have more screenshots of half-finished features, not-ready-yet software, because it gives us, users, insight about the real status of amsn2 and it may serve you to promote the project and lure more developers to work with you.

Thanks in advance.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on July 29, 2009, 11:57:28 pm
Hi Alejandro, welcome to the forums!
Thanks for the nice and respectful request! :)
Well, you can always follow the progress on git, which is available to everyone...
to start bloggin about the progress is not such a bad idea, and I'll think about it.. in the meantime, just go grab the latest git and try it out yourself! The GTK front end seems to work fine, the other front ends are still behind though.. and the core hasn't advanced yet in a while... that's pretty much it.


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Stian1979 on August 11, 2009, 12:58:57 pm
Is there any screen-shots?
I wan't amsn2 NOW!!!!  :twisted:

I have not ben here for a long time and though all development was dead since my version number did not change for a year.
Glad to see the best msn client for linux is still being developed by south competent people.

PS: Hope I can get the beta soon  :wink:


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: kakaroto on August 11, 2009, 05:59:28 pm
Read this : http://www.amsn-project.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6826


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: alexandernst on August 12, 2009, 11:18:58 am
UUuffff, that was sooooo close to delay amsn2 for 1 more month... :p


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Skarllot on August 26, 2009, 02:17:18 pm
I'm C# developer, I learning C++/Gtkmm and I have little time.
Can I help in something? What should I do?


Title: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: arantes on August 26, 2009, 10:38:38 pm
http://www.amsn-project.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5994
Everything is explained here ^^


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: KingOss on February 06, 2011, 04:01:59 pm
Hi everybody... how much time to the release of amsn2??? I was joking...

I've downloaded amsn2 on my ubuntu 4 months ago because I'd like to help you developing it, but I never had time to do it. Now I can spend 10 mins a day helping so I've updated from the git/master the program, but now it doesn't work!! I've watched in the console for some error messages but nothing, empty screen, some ideas?


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Ametz on July 09, 2011, 06:23:31 pm
it's not delayed by a week, but by a month :)
But it's going fine as you can see here : http://github.com/drf/amsn2/network .

Then i would say amsn2 is dead now since no update have been made since 2009 there.


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: alexandernst on July 09, 2011, 09:16:44 pm
That's the old repo. Replace "drf" with "amsn" in the link.


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: Ametz on July 10, 2011, 04:15:50 pm
That's the old repo. Replace "drf" with "amsn" in the link.

That was much better then. 19 Hr since last update, so it is alive after all, nice too see that (^_^)

https://github.com/amsn/amsn2


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: victorj on January 09, 2012, 08:45:09 am
how much delay in amsn2, even games for linux do not delay in updates as amsn delay. and look at the msn games and most importantly, being a daily application;
good for one sugestoões amsn2 Tues integration social networks twitter and facebook ...
send a message to all your contacts. from now will laugh at the little guy in comparison with Microsoft's MSN amsn remains to be more complete and beautiful, it attracts audiences for Linux. Read more on my topic> http://www.amsn-project.net/forums/index.php?topic=8371.0


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: victorj on January 09, 2012, 09:34:13 am
Kakaroto: Please read my topic carefully, I'm young and I know that msn today is a intreterimento lives of teenagers in today's> http://www.amsn-project.net/forums/index.php?topic=8371.0


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: flapane on May 18, 2012, 04:51:22 pm
Last commit 10 months ago: it's definitely dead.


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: hellouser on October 15, 2013, 02:01:00 am
Its going to be nearly 6 years since the announcement of aMSN 2 and there's been next to nothing made public about it. Some of these lazy developers need to put out an official statement that the project is dead.


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: justincase on January 27, 2015, 06:21:09 pm
We need at least a patch for aMSN like this for the old MSN Messenger:

https://messengergeek.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/use-messenger-reviver-2-to-bring-back-messenger-and-beat-skype/


Title: Re: Announcing aMSN2!!!!
Post by: alexandernst on January 29, 2015, 02:54:20 am
I'm sorry, but none of us (aMSN devs) has any free time. We all moved along.
But if you want to write a patch and send it to me, I'll gladly review it and merge it.