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Author Topic: [sug] Admin level logging  (Read 8709 times)
arckane
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« on: July 10, 2006, 05:50:48 pm »

Hi folks

I'm not sure if people will agree with this one or not:  Being that I have a young daughter I would like the ability to keep her logs whether she turns off that option or not.  It's not that I don't trust her, I just don't trust everyone that she speaks to as I've not met half of them.

The ability to pipe her chat to maybe the root/admin account regardless of the option would work for me.  I don't like to spy on her, I just want to make sure that she's not being misdirected in life or someone is bullying her into doing stupid things.  I suppose this option would come down to more of a Parent/Admin panel or the alike?

Another purpose I can think of is corporations that use aMSN could make sure that all logs are gathered as conversations on company property are the right of the company...  Well, so the companies think any how.

Let me know your thoughts.
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vivia
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2006, 07:41:56 pm »

Hi,

Yes, that would be useful, but quite difficult to implement the security part of it and we currently have other priorities (unfortunately, our coding resources are very limited). However, I wonder if you could find some 3rd-party software that would capture the packets and log them.

Thanx for reporting this though.

ps: kkrt, could you think of an easy way to implement that? the logging part would be easy, just an option to override, but how about making sure it won't be used by many users to spy on each other? I might be stupid now, but maybe modifying amsn-remote and setting a password that his daughter wouldn't know could be good for a start?
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Elias
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2006, 10:32:51 pm »

maybe a good way to make sure no one use this parental feature to spy and trick them would be to tell the user that everything he says is logged for parental purpous and all the configuration related to this feature would be password protected... maybe a "global" pluggin (understand here: that share the same configuration for all amsn accounts) that would encrypt logs using the password and that can't be unloaded without that password ?
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arckane
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2006, 10:41:43 pm »

This is one that I feel would go down well for aMSN as well, it means you can tag it with "Parental Control Features"  Smiley
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snipe2004
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2006, 10:54:38 pm »

I agree with Elias : at first, I didn't like this idea because I think that it could be easily used in a bad way, intrusing other adults' private life.

If it's said clearly, this is less valuable, and the option can be used in a good way.

But I'm definitively against the feature, even with a warning, I find no one can invade his children/borthers/sisters lifes against his/her/their will(s), it's really disgusting :S :S  :evil:

I hate when people prefer loosing freedom for more security  :evil:
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Elias
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2006, 11:49:12 pm »

Quote from: "snipe2004"
But I'm definitively against the feature, even with a warning, I find no one can invade his children/borthers/sisters lifes against his/her/their will(s), it's really disgusting :S :S  :evil:

+1, i personnally value trust, even with childs.

But i also respect those who may want to "invade" their child's life for protecting purpous even if i would be doing it myself and that i consider it as a bad habbit.

A good talk and maybe a contact list cleanup (only people known in real world from trusted communities), imho, have much more results than any spy-like pluggin.

But hey, i'm not the one that will intent to change parents habbits or prevent them from doing so.
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arckane
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2006, 07:26:55 am »

I suppose this idea can be taken in a few ways, there is the spying issue but then there is also the real reason for my asking which is the protection side.

As my child goes in to her teens I won't be so worried and value her to make real life decisions without any inteference from me, but as she's pre-teen it's easy for people to misguide and goad her into situations.  You could say that maybe she's too young to use messenger but that wouldn't be right.  I could clean her contact list but I imagine she'd find that intruding also.

When I was in my teens I hated the thought that my parents would interfere with anything I was doing and I don't plan on using this for too long a time, just until I feel happy that she is ready to have her own independance and has a strong will to make up her own mind.

A simple screen that flashes "Global logging enabled" should suffice as a warning?
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snipe2004
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2006, 10:03:08 pm »

Arckane, I understand what u think, but I deeply disagree, even if I perfectly know that u do it for her, and not in the goal to intrude her privacy.
But it IS intruding her privacy, and u can protect her by many meanings better than this. Would u like someone reading your mails, looking at your cell phone, checking what you say on MSN with who ? U'll say you're adult and have a better judgement and knowledge of life than she, I agree, but it's up to her to make her own mistakes and learn from them. She can talk with people u don't know in real life, but do u follow her everywhere to ensure she doesn't? I don't think so Wink So don't do it on Internet, respect her right to make mistakes Wink

But don't take this bad, I know u only want to protect her  :wink:

And personaly, I don't think aMSN should start to implement any "control system" of any kind...
That's only my point of view of course...
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arckane
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 09:05:54 am »

Well, there's the for and againsts Smiley

I respect your opinion Snipe, I truelly do.  Are you a parent by any chance? :p
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snipe2004
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 10:03:19 pm »

Like I do for yours don't worry Wink

No, not yet, but I don't think my opinion'll change when I'll be - too much bad memories of such a situation Wink

BTW, I've nothing to say about the way you educate your children, and absolutely no lessons to teach, I just give you my opinion Smiley
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arckane
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2006, 07:33:27 am »

That's fair comment and I didn't think I'd change what I thought about the whole privacy thing for children until the birth of my daughter.

Glad to have the debate Wink
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Elias
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2006, 08:06:20 am »

I think that reading the logs in order to effectively protect a child is lot of work, they might be saying a lot of crap so you wouldn't know were to look.

I would also tend to see a buddy list cleanning with the cooperation of the child much less intrusive than a systematic reading of every log.

Same for the message, their is too much opacity in "Global logging enabled". It clearly have to say that the user havea big brother on his back, reading every thing he says.

ps: not a father, but a brother that had to find some stuff to protect the lil' familly sister.
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kakaroto
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2006, 09:40:47 pm »

wow, this is an interesting topic, but I don't think it has its place here. I will move the thread to the 'whatever you want to talk about section'. arckane, you didn't post in the wrong place, on the contrary, it's just that the thread went in an off topic discussion.
My opinion (and I'm not a parent yet) is that it's simply wrong. I do understand your motives and I would LOVE to do it myself for my little sister or whatever (and I may even do it), but I just feel it's wrong, I know that the thing I value most is my privacy, whether it be as an adult or as a child.
The way to educate someone is not like that, you should sit down with your daughter and make sure she understands your motives, make her enable that option herself, knowing what is being done and accepting that fact. Same as CL cleaning, ask her who is every contact and ask why this or that contact should stay on the list and why it should be removed, take the decisions together...
as snipe said, you might monitor everything she does on internet, but you can't sit next to her in class or hide under her class's window to listen to what she says... you can't really monitor her, the best way to do it is to have her trust, not you trusting her, but her trusting you. This way, she'll chat, go to school and every day sit down with you and tell you what happened during the day, who said what, who bullied her, who annoyed her, and you can her advices, this way, you'll really know everything and it won't be intrusive.
In the other case, a plugin that would show a "parental control loggin, whatever" message will not only make her mad at you but it will also make her either use a different client on purpose to make sure you don't read the 'important discussions' and she'll still use amsn but never say anything you don't want her to say (do you really think someone will talk about secrets while knowing being monitored by his parents?)
Also, what if you discover something, like for example someone who 'forces' her into stealing something, you would go and say "don't do it?", then it will be "how do you know?" and it will be a huge mess, and I'm pretty sure that most of the time, the rebellious reaction will be that she'll do what you don't want her to do, just to annoy you.
If you want to avoid that, it wil lbe even more difficult, you'll know she has a problem but can't do anything, can't talk about it, and it wil lbe frustrating (trust me, by experience), it will make it even harder.
The best thing is that you need to trust her. Not trust as in she's good or bad, but trust her as in she's able to make her own decisions. If she's not, then you have to always lead her, but she has to know why.
Anyways, enough of that, I think I said enough of my opinion.
It's nice to see you talk about it without fighting, but I really sensed that you were all cautious with the "look, I swear, I respect you and I don't want to start any fight here"... Smiley anyways, you know I mean no harm either.
take care and good luck!
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snipe2004
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2006, 10:00:32 pm »

Damn, I don't speak english as well as KKRT and Elias do, but they said perfectly in english what I'm thinking in french - and even a bit more  Cheesy

And to come back to the original topic, implementing a "big brother" plugin would, as I said earlier, be bad for aMSN. But, even if I think I'm right about it, should it be implemented or not? To let users decide about it? KKRT seems not to want, what do others dev think about it ? Should we do something like a poll? Because we know this is a sensible debate, so that we should take the decision about it "democratically" ?

I don't know, really... I'll always be defending freedom, but justly, shouldn't we let up to the users the right to use or not to use a plug-in ?
Even if it's a plug-in that's attempting to other people's freedom ?

Anyway, I would vote "No", but the debate's interesting Wink
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arckane
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2006, 01:38:34 pm »

I completely agree with the trust factor, I was exactly the same as a child and I know my parents used the trust method and never spied on anything I was doing (I think!).

My thinking is that I can protect her in this way is probably wrong, I never really thought so much about her privacy as much as making sure that her friends weren't total idiots.  If I was that bothered I would packet sniff all conversations but I'm not generally like that.  I don't filter access to websites either as I trust that she won't go visiting them or if she does, it's for her own personal learning.

The only other reason for this plugin is for company use.  I already know that my company uses MS Exchange and the Windows Messenger client.  There is an option on the server to log all conversations for legal reasons although I'm not sure that how it'd stand in a court of law.  Since aMSN is for the community and not for business (although you are open to all markets) it would be the only other reason I can think of for using this plugin.  To show that conversations are logged on the Windows Messenger client it shows this above the CL:

"All conversations are logged and are the property of xxxxxx company."
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